Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development

[Plaxor]

From the 5th edition rulebook, it states that it can barely be seen in the realm of ultramar.

Which is weird because the rulebook also shows marine chapters crusading far out past the eastern fringe.... ugh.

[Zelnik]

Lets be fair though, The fleets going east are the Black Templars (who tend to not care exactly where they turn up so long as there is a fight to have... seriously, they are more orky then human ). So.. if they find they can't come back... well then clearly they need to keep going around finding a new fight.

No one knows much about the Omega Marines.. aside from liking dreadnaughts.

[BaronIveagh]

From the 5th edition rulebook, it states that it can barely be seen in the realm of ultramar.

Which is weird because the rulebook also shows marine chapters crusading far out past the eastern fringe.... ugh.

I think he assumed that Ultima Macharia is in Ultramar.  In fact it's on the opposite side of the Galaxy, marking the furthest extent of Macharius's conquests in Pacificus.  While astropathic contact with Macragge has become intermittent, this is quite possibly due to the lingering effects of the Shadow in the Warp.

And, despite the doomsaying, humans got through the warp just fine before the astronomicon was built.  Point of fact, there are archeotech cogitators, called void abaci, that are specifically designed to make calculated jumps further then 5 LY without a navigator.  While not actually proscribed, they're rare, and the navigator houses make a point to eliminate them where possible.  Rogue traders that travel beyond the emperor's light on a regular basis anyway occasionally make use of them.

[Zelnik]

yes, they did BEFORE... but currently the problem is NOW. NOW those devices are rare, NOW the houses of the navigators are in control, and NOW the space marines DO NOT HAVE THEM nor do they understand them enough to make more.

And I continue my point: No one has explained why they have not just used segmentum solar to solve their fleet woes for space marines.  Even when i bring it up, it is ignored.

[lastspartacus]

What, the segmentum?  What about it?

[Zelnik]

...

Segmentum Solar is a fleet where you can take both space marine and Imperial navy vessels.

No space marine player has explained to me why they don't use this fleet to solve their balance woes.

[BaronIveagh]

yes, they did BEFORE... but currently the problem is NOW. NOW those devices are rare, NOW the houses of the navigators are in control, and NOW the space marines DO NOT HAVE THEM nor do they understand them enough to make more.

And I continue my point: No one has explained why they have not just used segmentum solar to solve their fleet woes for space marines.  Even when i bring it up, it is ignored.

He's referring to the Armageddon list where you can take both Marines and IN ships.  Other then it not being fluffy outside the segmentum solar, you're basically demanding that we do away with SM lists all together, rather then make them balanced with IN.  SM have on more then one occasion fought their own battles in space without the aid of IN, I might point to the defense of Ultramar against the Warsmith Honsu of the Iron Warriors as an example, who, by the way, had a mix of Chaos and Imperial ships, as well as renegade strike cruisers.

And, for fun, I'll point out that a void abacus is less rare and poorly understood then teleporters.  Which, it seems, Space Marines have in spades.

[Zelnik]

quite the contrary. I have no problem having a space marine fleet, I have a problem when people complain about issues that do not exist.  If you want variety, take the segmentum solar list, and say it's from somewhere else if you must. 

If you want a challenge, do raw space marines.

You have plenty of variety, your just not willing to accept it because it doesn't have huge shoulder pads and power armor. 

[lastspartacus]

Oh, come on.  Just because you think something should be in the game, doesn't mean you are having a fanboy nerdrage because it doesn't exist.
It doesn't even add anything to the marine list if there was the swapout, so how can you make those accusations and assumptions?

[BaronIveagh]

quite the contrary. I have no problem having a space marine fleet, I have a problem when people complain about issues that do not exist.  If you want variety, take the segmentum solar list, and say it's from somewhere else if you must. 

If you want a challenge, do raw space marines.

You have plenty of variety, your just not willing to accept it because it doesn't have huge shoulder pads and power armor. 

Yes, because it wouldn't be rude at all of me to tell my opponents 'Your four ship fleetlist and predictable tactics bore me.  Play IN.'  I rate statements like that right up there with 'If you want to play in this tournament, you have to remove all your resin bits from your IG minis because they're not GW IP."  as though the resin bedrolls on their backpacks were somehow un-40k. 

We will not speak of what happened when one member of our gaming club brought in custom greenstuff FSMs to gamesday a few years back.

[Zelnik]

Then deal with the fact that your going to be upset a LOT.

This is NOT 40k, where space marines get six of every toy in the game. This is BFG, where space marines are NOT important. They are a small part of a much bigger faction, their ships work almost entirely the same as said faction as well. 

If your so desperate for variety, use Segmentum Solar, which is established and known to be balanced, OR you can use the new Inquisition fleet list. 

I find it disgusting that you think space marines need more variety when Dark eldar have a grand sum of two ships.

[BaronIveagh]

Then deal with the fact that your going to be upset a LOT.

This is NOT 40k, where space marines get six of every toy in the game. This is BFG, where space marines are NOT important. They are a small part of a much bigger faction, their ships work almost entirely the same as said faction as well. 

If your so desperate for variety, use Segmentum Solar, which is established and known to be balanced, OR you can use the new Inquisition fleet list. 

I find it disgusting that you think space marines need more variety when Dark eldar have a grand sum of two ships.

Didn't say that DE didn't need more ships.  Though, frankly, no one has ever brought a dark eldar fleet against me.  So I really can't say that I'd be bored with it. 

And, frankly, sorry that I have manners and still practice good sportsmanship, but telling the people that play SM 'Quit whining about it being broken and play a real fleet'  is not an answer to the balance or lack of options issues.  It's sort of like a necron player saying 'See, I lost an escort annihilating your fleet!  So, see, it's balanced!'

[lastspartacus]

Zelnik, your hate of 40k marines is dated anyway.  They are outshone these days, definitly not '6 of every toy'

Don't let your bitterness over 40k marines, or whatever it is, allow you to see anymore than a debate on if some strike cruisers could have lances.
Its a weaker option, therefore its not some desperate desire for a shiny toy.  Use common sense.

[Zelnik]

I am not going to stop pounding you with the established facts until you stop ignoring them.

Yes, i hate space marines as a concept, but i have a very large fleet of them and enjoy playing them a great deal. 

One of the reasons why I enjoy BFG is that space marines are NOT important on this scale, and it annoys me when people scream to make them just as tricked out as they are in 40k.

No. your not getting lances. If you want them, take a reserve Gothic, take Nova frigates, or take a VBB from the FOC list.

Strike cruisers and barges are NOT getting lances. you have Bombardment cannons.  Even if it's a 10cm lance that needs a 5 to hit, your not getting it. 

What I find even more vulgar is that 20 bombardment cannons on a broadside is just not enough for you. 

So to put it simply: You can't have it. your not getting it.

[BaronIveagh]

I am not going to stop pounding you with the established facts until you stop ignoring them.

Yes, i hate space marines as a concept, but i have a very large fleet of them and enjoy playing them a great deal. 

One of the reasons why I enjoy BFG is that space marines are NOT important on this scale, and it annoys me when people scream to make them just as tricked out as they are in 40k.

No. your not getting lances. If you want them, take a reserve Gothic, take Nova frigates, or take a VBB from the FOC list.

Strike cruisers and barges are NOT getting lances. you have Bombardment cannons.  Even if it's a 10cm lance that needs a 5 to hit, your not getting it. 

What I find even more vulgar is that 20 bombardment cannons on a broadside is just not enough for you. 

So to put it simply: You can't have it. your not getting it.

Reality and Zel have just parted company.  (Since I might point out that I was one of the people complaining that SO is even more powerful then it was when everyone complained that it was brokenly powerful.)

Zel, what facts, other then you hate space marines, have you established?  While I grant that the primary role of a battlebarge is as a support platform for a ground assault, the fact that, by purpose and design, a Strike cruiser has to enter a potentially hot LZ with little to no intel on what they might be facing would be a very good reason for it to carry anti-ship weapons. 

Every source I have been able to lay hands on, including Armada, states that the SC is usually the first imperial ship to enter a potentially hostile system and, like combat engineers on a beachhead, is supposed to clear the way for the IN fleet coming in behind them.  The idea that they cannot mount anti-ship weapons, when their purpose is to subdue an area which may contain hostile ships, is an absurdity.

And why is it that people against improving SC all immediately claim to own a SM fleet and accuse their opponents of being SM fanboys?  Neither statement advances the idea that SM do not have lances.