Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development

[lastspartacus]

New BFG ships?  Don't worry, the HA can have their way with those too :p

Have they actually announced these? Officially?

Not just new ships, new fleet lists too. Given how it's about the Badab war, what do you want to bet that they're SM lists?

Ugh.... Hopefully they'll make something not-marine with their lot. Maybe some renegades or IN vessels.

SM fleet with marks of chaos?

[Zelnik]

GNYAAAAAAARGH!

[barras1511]

I have read the Dark Angels fluff and this was not the impression I got at all.  Or from the Black Templar's fluff, who actually have marginally more to hide.

Barras: the Imperium offered no treaties.  The decision to break up was done internally to the Space Marines, and was not universal (I point to the Space Wolves here, since, technically, their legion never broke up).  Most of them were already so badly mauled in the fighting on Terra or Isstvan III that only one or two chapters broke off from the original legion.  (Or, in the case of the Dark Angles, the internal war on Caliban)

And, again, you are using the lens of a single chapter, that has, among other things, annihilated entire planets to keep a secret, as well as attacked other space marine chapters.  I would suggest that killing entire planets for no known reason is a good way to get Inquisitorial attention.

And, actually things have to get quite bad before a world is cleansed.  Unless the Inquisitor is mad, or it's part of a scorched earth defense against the Tyrannids.

'Just as pronouncement of Exterminatus, it is our greatest failure when it comes to pass'. - Inq Felroth Gelt on the Ad Mech excommunicating a world, Creatures Anathema, pg 14

As far as what the Sm fleet is:

The real problem is the role of Strike Cruisers.  An SC is the first ship on scene, in advance of all other Imperial forces.  It has to be armed to meet whatever it might encounter.  It's primary mission will be to neutralize system defenses, including defense monitors and other starships, where possible, then drop the marines on strategic points to pave the way for an IG landing and provide fire support for those landings where needed.

Anyone wish to argue that his is not common procedure?

It's more likely that one would see escorts accompanying battle barges to offset their lack of mobility, or on long range patrols in areas that are interdicted rather then accompanying SC on the off chance they encounter something.  Almost all the fluff on the subject has SC traveling alone or in pairs.  Only in situations were large numbers of SM are being deployed do you tend to see them in fleet actions. 


As far as the VBB: Fire the Wave Motion gun.  I figured they'd make us miss the old SO. 

Lets see. I said the SM offered terms. The Empire accepted. The codexes of the various chapters are the binding treaties by which the SM live. The Empire has the right to investigate and enforce breaches of the codexes. The SM do not have to cooperate with these investigations as the are not under direct control of the Empire which creates suspicion. One man being able to kill billions by his word alone is what I would call too easy and a result of narcissism and paranoia displayed within the Empire! Honestly to understand the pyschological situation of the Empire in 40k do some research on the spanish inquisitions.

SCs are already overgunned for your argued role.
The system defense systems that you are talking about do not include the black stone fortress. They are small one hit defenses. A single thunder hawk will take them down. It is not a ship to ship engagement platform. It is a transport. It has fast speed and good armour. It can take on escorts but almost any other ship on equal terms must envoke a fallback response unless mission requirements dictate they can not do so. Then the SC must rely on its defenses rather than its fire power to complete its mission unlike other fleets.

@Zelnik Here here mate!

[Zelnik]

It is SO easy to point at the space marines and say "I want more", Mostly because SO many people play them and SO many people love them. It's hard to tell obsessed children that their heroes are not what their propaganda plays out to be, especially when the creators of said heroes stated that everything they write is hit with a healthy dose of propaganda.

For example, Space marines killing a craftworld? Uh, probably not. It was more likely a Haven Spire they invaded.

[BaronIveagh]

Have they actually announced these? Officially?

Yes, but not what type of ships

Ugh.... Hopefully they'll make something not-marine with their lot. Maybe some renegades or IN vessels.

Possible lists, based on the War in question: Combined fleet for Tyrant of Badab, Inq Intervention force, character ships for involved chapters.

SM fleet with marks of chaos?

Sadly, entirely possible, given the war in question.

Lets see. I said the SM offered terms. The Empire accepted. The codexes of the various chapters are the binding treaties by which the SM live. The Empire has the right to investigate and enforce breaches of the codexes. The SM do not have to cooperate with these investigations as the are not under direct control of the Empire which creates suspicion. One man being able to kill billions by his word alone is what I would call too easy and a result of narcissism and paranoia displayed within the Empire! Honestly to understand the pyschological situation of the Empire in 40k do some research on the spanish inquisitions.

SCs are already overgunned for your argued role.
The system defense systems that you are talking about do not include the black stone fortress. They are small one hit defenses. A single thunder hawk will take them down. It is not a ship to ship engagement platform. It is a transport. It has fast speed and good armour. It can take on escorts but almost any other ship on equal terms must envoke a fallback response unless mission requirements dictate they can not do so. Then the SC must rely on its defenses rather than its fire power to complete its mission unlike other fleets.

@Zelnik Here here mate!

Barras, there is only one Codex Astartes, and quite a few chapters don't follow it.

And... I hate to say it, but not a single system defense would die to one thawk.  Please check your blue book.

And, sadly, I'm quite familiar with the operations of the 'real world' Inquisition and most of the other crimes of humanity. 

And, again, please note that a SDF monitor, an escort, outguns the SC, and is the most likely escort for it to encounter several of.  A standard space station is more then one SC can handle on it's own.

It is SO easy to point at the space marines and say "I want more", Mostly because SO many people play them and SO many people love them. It's hard to tell obsessed children that their heroes are not what their propaganda plays out to be, especially when the creators of said heroes stated that everything they write is hit with a healthy dose of propaganda.

For example, Space marines killing a craftworld? Uh, probably not. It was more likely a Haven Spire they invaded.

Actually, it is conceivable to do so with a surgical strike against the craftworlds infinity circuit.  According to Planetstrike, if the infinity circuit of a maiden world (the proper term escapes me) is destroyed, within hours every eldar on the planet lays down and dies.  If one could do such a thing to a craftworld, it's conceivable that it would meet the same fate.

AS far as your other points:

1) The primary advantage of the IN is how grotesquely they outnumber the SM.  Remember that a 2k point game represents the bulk of an entire chapter's forces, but a small fraction of what the local IN can bring to bare.  Further, the majority of the time, a chapter of space marines might only be abel to field a handful of ships due to being scatered across several warzones.  Even if the SM ships were better then thier IN equivalents, the advantage, at least in the 'real world' of 40k as opposed to the abstraction of BFG, would lay with IN due to sheer overwhelming numbers.

2) True
3) True and false.  The major balance is the number of SM ships.  Lances would take a back seat to that by a wide margin.  No source I can find suggests that the Admech monitor the SM at all other then monitoring their geneseed. 
4)True
5)Problematic, as to defy the command of the Emperor is heresy, but occasionally he passed out presents way above what In feels safe with now.  And, frankly, how is SO a VBB?  It was modified to it's current configuration during the first Tyrannic war.  That's only 200 years BCE in 40k.  There are frigates more 'venerable' then that. 

And, again, you forget that we're looking at the bulk of an entire chapter's forces.

6) Hard to say.  Part of attack rating is the ability to formulate strategy, which, unfortunately, their hundreds of years of experience give them an edge in.
7) True, though some may have sworn oaths to do so.
I disagree somewhat here, as there are specialist chapters who are experts in exactly the sort of ship to ship boardings that we're talking bout, and that level of expertise should have some impact.
9)More powerful, probably not, as powerful, sure.
10)That's like saying 'Well, we use this nuclear device for clearing rockslides, but it does a dandy number on cities, too!' 
11)Agreed, however, I also sort of agree with the new rule for them only autokilling an escort on a +4

[Zelnik]

Baron, i am glad you more agree then disagree. Now, you need to remove YOUR bias from this just as I have, only from the opposite direction.


Lances are the most efficient anti-capitol ship weapon at the disposal of the Imperial navy. The fact that it is restricted from the Space Marines is a well documented measure to prevent space marines from sweeping the Imperium aside.  Allow me to show you the description for the Nova Frigate

"Of all the vessels in the service of the Adeptus Astartes, the Nova class
frigate is commonly the single class to which the Imperial navy take the
most exception. It lacks sufficient size to really fulfil the deployment and
assault roles for which Space Marine ships are primarily intended and its
lance armament and speed make it a menacing gunboat in its own right. As
such, the Nova remains rare in most Space Marine fleets, a trend the
Imperial Navy, the Inquisition and other institutions perpetually concerned
by the balance of power would dearly love to see continue."

This is about as telling as possible. 

The strike at the infinity circuit etc is SUCH trash, considering maiden worlds by their very definition don't have infinity circuit's... Mostly because they are ruled by Exodites... who do not have the same problems their dark and craftworld cousins do... infinity circuits are unique to craftworlds, and is established in just about every bit of fluff out there... Also, considering the level of defense craftworlds have, the idea that they destroyed one is purest fanwank and almost certainly propaganda.

You are constantly associating this game with 40k. time to stop that.  the codex astartes? guess what, it means nothing at this scale. It's simply too big, too broad. specializations mean NOTHING at this scale, because in the end, they are still space marines. just because they are better at going through corridors then some others will be mitigated by the others specialization in other areas.
In the end, all of the training and specializations are reduced to a simple 2+ bonus.  What your not getting is that is REALLY awesome, and you should be happy for it.


It's not just numbers, Space marine ships are NOT designed for fleet engagements, and they never will be. The Mars class hull, along with the old imperial design have a different mission objective then the space marine vessels. The naval vessels are designed (effectively) to engage and destroy the enemy, albeit in two different ways (torpedo phalanx and squadron combat vs strong independent and fast vessels).

Space marine vessels are made to do the following mission: Transport space marines to a target safely, effectively, and provide heavy air support when units are in the field.  Boarding actions and teleport attacks are NOT part of their normal combat actions, but damn if they are good at it! They CAN engage in fleet actions, but they are grossly out matched by other combat vessels (and rightly so)

when it comes to attack rating: Space marines are not trained for space combat. Nuff said.

Ship to ship boarding chapters are not only rare, but they have a very short lifespan.. think the Astral Knights here.

And yes... it is dandy against rock slides and cities.. and so they use it for both.

The Emperor also lived in a time where there was no chaos taint.  In the end, the Emperor was wrong, he died, and chaos erupted all over the empire. The High lords and especially the Admiralty know better then to give space marines emperor battleships.  Lets not forget, blowing it up to keep it out of the hands of the untrustworthy is part of the imperial doctrine.

And all the high lords have to say is "it's the emperors will". and viola, no more emperor.

[BaronIveagh]

Lances are the most efficient anti-capitol ship weapon at the disposal of the Imperial navy. The fact that it is restricted from the Space Marines is a well documented measure to prevent space marines from sweeping the Imperium aside.  Allow me to show you the description for the Nova Frigate

"Of all the vessels in the service of the Adeptus Astartes, the Nova class
frigate is commonly the single class to which the Imperial navy take the
most exception. It lacks sufficient size to really fulfil the deployment and
assault roles for which Space Marine ships are primarily intended and its
lance armament and speed make it a menacing gunboat in its own right. As
such, the Nova remains rare in most Space Marine fleets, a trend the
Imperial Navy, the Inquisition and other institutions perpetually concerned
by the balance of power would dearly love to see continue."

This is about as telling as possible.  

Now, here is where we don't see eye to eye.  I see the emphasis on the idea of pure gunboats, with no ability to land marines.  You see it as being on the weapon system that they carry.

The strike at the infinity circuit etc is SUCH trash, considering maiden worlds by their very definition don't have infinity circuit's... Mostly because they are ruled by Exodites... who do not have the same problems their dark and craftworld cousins do... infinity circuits are unique to craftworlds, and is established in just about every bit of fluff out there... Also, considering the level of defense craftworlds have, the idea that they destroyed one is purest fanwank and almost certainly propaganda.

The Exodite worlds have what's called a world spirit, which is for all intents and purposes, a planetary infinity circuit.  And this is established in Codex: Eldar (2nd and 4th editions)

And, given their artificial nature, it doesn't matter how big it is as long as you hit it in the right places.   Even the largest structure can be demolished with explosives planted in key places.

You are constantly associating this game with 40k. time to stop that.  the codex astartes? guess what, it means nothing at this scale. It's simply too big, too broad. specializations mean NOTHING at this scale, because in the end, they are still space marines. just because they are better at going through corridors then some others will be mitigated by the others specialization in other areas.
In the end, all of the training and specializations are reduced to a simple 2+ bonus.  What your not getting is that is REALLY awesome, and you should be happy for it.

So the Black Templars having more then 10 strike cruisers would have no bearing at all on their fleet?  The Phalanx would be a simple Fortress monastery (That's no moon, it's a space marine fortress monastery....)?  Pardon me if I seem incredulous, but the idea that experienced superhuman warriors with equipped with specialized gear can't be more effective then less experienced supermen without specialized gear at effectively conducting a task seems a bit implausible to me.  The idea that a chapter that is not bound by the codex, and it is made clear in BFG that what ships a chapter fleet contains is a codex issue, would fight and have exactly the same ships as one that does follow the codex seems a bit off, particularly in the case of chapters known to have at least some large scale manufacturing capability.

I have a hard time with the idea that Space Marines, being the consummate warriors that they are, would not use the best weapon for the task, and if they could not procure one, attempt to fabricate it themselves.  

It's not just numbers, Space marine ships are NOT designed for fleet engagements, and they never will be. The Mars class hull, along with the old imperial design have a different mission objective then the space marine vessels. The naval vessels are designed (effectively) to engage and destroy the enemy, albeit in two different ways (torpedo phalanx and squadron combat vs strong independent and fast vessels).

Space marine vessels are made to do the following mission: Transport space marines to a target safely, effectively, and provide heavy air support when units are in the field.  Boarding actions and teleport attacks are NOT part of their normal combat actions, but damn if they are good at it! They CAN engage in fleet actions, but they are grossly out matched by other combat vessels (and rightly so)

And yet, supposedly, simply by changing a BC to a lance, they instantly become combat monsters that destroy every ship they look at, to judge people's response here.  All it takes is that lance and they transform into Optimus Norris.

when it comes to attack rating: Space marines are not trained for space combat. Nuff said.

Ship to ship boarding chapters are not only rare, but they have a very short lifespan.. think the Astral Knights here.

The Minotaurs have been around since the Cursed Founding.  So, that's a 4-5k year run.

And yes... it is dandy against rock slides and cities.. and so they use it for both.

The Emperor also lived in a time where there was no chaos taint.  In the end, the Emperor was wrong, he died, and chaos erupted all over the empire. The High lords and especially the Admiralty know better then to give space marines emperor battleships.  Lets not forget, blowing it up to keep it out of the hands of the untrustworthy is part of the imperial doctrine.

And all the high lords have to say is "it's the emperors will". and viola, no more emperor.

One problem with that, the landraider.  Originally, all branches of the Imperial service had access to the Landraider, before the Heresy.  During the Heresy, due to most of the forgeworlds producing them falling to chaos or opting to sit on the fence, they were restricted to space marines as a means to combat the supply shortages.  After the Heresy, and never in all the time since then, have the high lords been willing to alter the Imperial decision to restrict them so, even though it's clear to all parties that it was meant as a temporary measure.  

If they're not willing to alter a relatively minor decision like that, one that, if he were to suddenly stand up off the throne and ask for an accounting, he would likely have no problem with, how much more so would they be reluctant to change a decision where he personally gave his word?  Further, at least one party in the High Lords, the AdMech rep, has a vested interest in the High Lords never turning over one of the Empror's decisions, as that is all that keeps the preisthood of Mars effectively independent from the greater Imperium.  After all, if they started repealing the Emperor's decrees in this, what would keep them from overturning the Treaty of Mars?

[Zelnik]

The way you see it is not how the story demands it. Tough.

And if you don't see the emphasis in marine landing, your not reading the space marine planetary assault and exterminatus rules for them. They get significant bonuses to LANDING space marines.



Yes, the most cherished and protected object on a world full of super psychic, super high tech aliens would clearly be so ill defended that a group of marines could destroy it.  Like I said, it is Fanwank. The answer is: No it didn't happen, but the space marines WISHED it happened, and probably claim it happens to keep them in high standing.

The black templars modify their ships to allow for greater troop capacity. Interesting how they are NOT known for their space combat prowess.

It is also Tech Heresy to fabricate weapons, especially new ones. Fortress Monistaries? they are called "space stations".  Again, no need for new Ramilies star fort rules.

Also, most Space marine chapters suffer significant 'turn around'.  Marines Die, they die A LOT.  Mostly because they fight a LOT.  Just because a Chapter is around for a long time does not mean it's marines are.  Only the truly lucky or skilled survive for long periods. 

The Minotaurs are -one- chapter. Having talent at fleet actions is nice, it's why space marines get LD 8-9-10.


all of your arguments just got invalidated because you used a 40k reference in BFG.  the landraider means NOTHING in this scale. an entire division of land raiders does not compare to even a lowly cobra destroyer.

What keeps them from overturning the treaty of mars... hmm.. maybe because the ad mech are the ONLY ones who know how to make the technology work. It would suck if every single machine in the imperium suddenly stopped working. 


You want space marines to be the major power in all sectors of all of the games.  Even GW realized this was not the case, and there are places where space marines are weak. In huge scale battles space marines suffer from lack of numbers and poor staying power.  In fleet engagements, having that 3+ save means nothing when the ship your on just exploded.  The Imperium is powerful, and mighty... what you need to realize is that Space marines are NOT.  They are  NOT a faction, they are NOT important in the grand scheme of things.  They are a tool used by a much bigger and more powerful faction... which we all know as the Imperium of Man. 

Why are they not important? It's time to think.  Space Marines are not responsible for keeping trade lanes safe, nor are they responsible for the majority of planetary defense.  They are too few to hold any sort of territory securely. They are utterly incapable of complete planetary domination for the same reason, and require the Imperial Guard for just that job.  Their entire existence is due to the fact that they are useful, and the moment they become NOT useful is the moment they are exterminated.

Space Marines are used as a surgical scalpel, destroying a single vital target so the greater attack force can function more effectively.  They are a -tool-, they hold -zero- power on the whole.  Want examples of how poorly space marines fare against real threats when people like Matt Ward and Goto are writing? Try reading Imperial Armor 3, where two space marine chapters were defeated by the Tau, or the Tyranid Codex where Calgar was killed by the Swarm Lord.

They are NOT mighty heroes of space battles, they are NOT groomed and talented fleet admirals.  Their job is on the ground. Not in space. They do NOT get the best and the most advanced.  Even the Grey Knights, who get the most advanced ships next to the Admech are restricted to vessels with identical operational parameters to the most backwater and shady chapter.

If you want to view a space marine battle in a realistic sense... think of it in these terms: Something went WRONG.  For some reason the escorting fleet of Imperial navy vessels were destroyed... or the hidden movements of the fleet were leaked by traitorous hands.  The Space marines now must fight for their lives and mission against an enemy that should not be there. 

[barras1511]

Baron you are quite right in what you said about the codex astartes. My thoughts were of the adaption of this within the various chapters and the many differences within the armies. I wrote this very badly. Forgive my error when I simplified this down to the "various codexes" in my head and didn't think to quantify this at the time of writing or posting.

Page 141 of the blue book. High orbit defenses. One wave of thunder hawks will destroy these single hit platforms 75% if the time. A single TH will destroy these defenses 25% of the time. So once again I apologise for over simplifying and not clarifying my statement.

Can I ask you the three best reasons why you want the ability to take lances? Is it game balance? Is it because of the fluff? Is it you just don't like vanilla marines and feel you should be able to make the fleet adaptable? If you let them how will you balance them against other fleets?

I have always said I am not against SM getting lances I'm against SM primarly being a fleet engagement navy and keeping balance which at the moment is against SM and needs changes.

[lastspartacus]

Just for the record, Zelnik, Marines are highly capable in most situations, including space.  They can do more with what they are given than your typical IN officer. Its why they have +1 leadership.

[BaronIveagh]

Yes, the most cherished and protected object on a world full of super psychic, super high tech aliens would clearly be so ill defended that a group of marines could destroy it.  Like I said, it is Fanwank. The answer is: No it didn't happen, but the space marines WISHED it happened, and probably claim it happens to keep them in high standing.

Why not?   Tyrannids just about did it, dark eldar HAVE done it, so it's not inconceivable that space marines might pull it off.  High degree of difficulty: oh, yes.  Impossible: no.  Remember that space marines also are responsible for clearing space hulks, which can be just as big, and much more heavily populated with aggressive xenoforms.

The black templars modify their ships to allow for greater troop capacity. Interesting how they are NOT known for their space combat prowess.

Except for in the Third War for Armageddon: and, I don't think so, as they'd have a larger bonus to landings and boarding actions if they did that.  (given the difference in numbers, it would be something like +8 or so.)

It is also Tech Heresy to fabricate weapons, especially new ones. Fortress Monistaries? they are called "space stations".  Again, no need for new Ramilies star fort rules.

No, sorry, Phalanx is a ship.  It's just a really huge one.   (supposedly it's armament is equivalent to a small fleet) Descriptions of The Rock, for example, indicate that it's much larger then a Ramilies.  

Again, I point to the Landraider, in this case, Redeemer and Crusader, that were fabricated by the Space Marines long before they were approved by the Admech.

Also, most Space marine chapters suffer significant 'turn around'.  Marines Die, they die A LOT.  Mostly because they fight a LOT.  Just because a Chapter is around for a long time does not mean it's marines are.  Only the truly lucky or skilled survive for long periods. 

The Minotaurs are -one- chapter. Having talent at fleet actions is nice, it's why space marines get LD 8-9-10.

Logically, where there is 'one' chapter there are probably 'more' chapters.  Only 200 odd of the 1000 chapters are even named.  

all of your arguments just got invalidated because you used a 40k reference in BFG.  the landraider means NOTHING in this scale. an entire division of land raiders does not compare to even a lowly cobra destroyer.

What keeps them from overturning the treaty of mars... hmm.. maybe because the ad mech are the ONLY ones who know how to make the technology work. It would suck if every single machine in the imperium suddenly stopped working. 

It does not invalidate my argument, as it shows the decision making process of the Imperium.  They did not decide to do or not do something based on if it was the tactically sensible thing to do, but rather because the Emperor said so, and to suggest to do otherwise is 'heresy'.  

Further, it is from a codex.  You know, the things that people stated that the information had to come from?

As far as the treaty of Mars goes: you assume two things: that the every techpriest is loyal to Mars over the Imperium, and that the Inquisition could never make the admech talk.  

The first is untrue, as the Inquisition has found out in the past, and the second... anyone will talk, you just need the right pressure.

You want space marines to be the major power in all sectors of all of the games.  Even GW realized this was not the case, and there are places where space marines are weak. In huge scale battles space marines suffer from lack of numbers and poor staying power.  In fleet engagements, having that 3+ save means nothing when the ship your on just exploded.  The Imperium is powerful, and mighty... what you need to realize is that Space marines are NOT.  They are  NOT a faction, they are NOT important in the grand scheme of things.  They are a tool used by a much bigger and more powerful faction... which we all know as the Imperium of Man. 

Why are they not important? It's time to think.  Space Marines are not responsible for keeping trade lanes safe, nor are they responsible for the majority of planetary defense.  They are too few to hold any sort of territory securely. They are utterly incapable of complete planetary domination for the same reason, and require the Imperial Guard for just that job.  Their entire existence is due to the fact that they are useful, and the moment they become NOT useful is the moment they are exterminated.

If space marines are not doing those things, how is Ultramar possible?  Since it's made clear they do those things there, and even serve as the heads of government.  Come to think of it, how was Blackheart able to take over an entire sector without that capability?  There are entire chapters in fluff with the responsibility to interdict certain regions of space.  How would they do that without patrolling?

Space Marines are used as a surgical scalpel, destroying a single vital target so the greater attack force can function more effectively.  They are a -tool-, they hold -zero- power on the whole.  Want examples of how poorly space marines fare against real threats when people like Matt Ward and Goto are writing? Try reading Imperial Armor 3, where two space marine chapters were defeated by the Tau, or the Tyranid Codex where Calgar was killed by the Swarm Lord.

They are NOT mighty heroes of space battles, they are NOT groomed and talented fleet admirals.  Their job is on the ground. Not in space. They do NOT get the best and the most advanced.  Even the Grey Knights, who get the most advanced ships next to the Admech are restricted to vessels with identical operational parameters to the most backwater and shady chapter.

If you want to view a space marine battle in a realistic sense... think of it in these terms: Something went WRONG.  For some reason the escorting fleet of Imperial navy vessels were destroyed... or the hidden movements of the fleet were leaked by traitorous hands.  The Space marines now must fight for their lives and mission against an enemy that should not be there. 

.... did you just suggest that CS Goto, mr Multilazors himself, should be the example we should all follow? o_0

Baron you are quite right in what you said about the codex astartes. My thoughts were of the adaption of this within the various chapters and the many differences within the armies. I wrote this very badly. Forgive my error when I simplified this down to the "various codexes" in my head and didn't think to quantify this at the time of writing or posting.

Page 141 of the blue book. High orbit defenses. One wave of thunder hawks will destroy these single hit platforms 75% if the time. A single TH will destroy these defenses 25% of the time. So once again I apologise for over simplifying and not clarifying my statement.

Can I ask you the three best reasons why you want the ability to take lances? Is it game balance? Is it because of the fluff? Is it you just don't like vanilla marines and feel you should be able to make the fleet adaptable? If you let them how will you balance them against other fleets?

I have always said I am not against SM getting lances I'm against SM primarly being a fleet engagement navy and keeping balance which at the moment is against SM and needs changes.

... you do realize that unless you roll a crit that deals damage, that 1 hit planetary defenses don't blow up like escorts, right?

1) I want SM to have more, VIABLE, choices.  Without options, you end up fighting with or against, the same fleets over and over.  There's little possible creativity for fleet design and still be viable.  VIABLE lances make for a more interesting game against a space marine player. (more ships would be better, but I'll take what I can get)

2)I feel that people are misinterpreting (when not outright claiming it doesn't exist) the fluff.  Putting a single lance on a SC does not magically transform it from a landing support ship to a gunboat anymore then putting a 12 inch Armstrong Whitworth on a submarine made it a battleship.  

3)The existing lance option is not balanced with the other options for the same ship.  It was deliberately made imbalanced to keep players from using them and enjoying the game, and not by the game designers.  It's like when you were a kid, and you got a shiny new present, only to open it to find that your siblings had stepped on it and broke it before you got it.

As far as balance goes: a str 2 lance is balanced with the str 3 BC it's replacing.  

[lastspartacus]

A full marine chapter does sound like it could take on a small craftworld, since most are considerably smaller and less well defended than the big 5.
Especially if the attendant fleet was unable to stop many ships getting in close.

[Zelnik]

Space marines do not have that power. They never have, and they never will.  Dark eldar have never attacked and destroyed a craftworld, what lore are you reading? The Tyranids FAILED to destroy the craftworld, and overwhelmed the maiden worlds because they do not have space defenses... also you should know that very FEW maiden worlds were lost, before the tyranid invasion was stopped. This is compared to the hundreds of worlds lost by the imperium. 



Ultramar exists for two important reasons. 
1. Imperial control does not exist in that sector ASIDE from the ultramarines.  They are forced to do the job because the Navy does not have the resources to do so.  Also, the Realm of Ultramar is doomed to fall, since the astronomicon no longer reaches their territory.
2. Because Ultramarines are Matt Wards lovechild.

These special ships you refer to exist in black library writings, which are viewed through significant propaganda lenses(which GW confessed is present in EVERY writing.  Nothing is the exact truth).  When they say "power of a battlefleet" i do NOT take it seriously. ever.  Period.

I used Goto because he is one of the best known, not because i like his writings.

More Viable choices? Play Segmentum Solar, you can take IN ships seamlessly with them. NO ONE HAS EVER GIVEN ME A GOOD REASON WHY THE HAVE NOT JUST USED THIS FLEET! If you want to use more effective space ships, just use the list that is already available to you and STOP begging for new stuff!

They are not getting lances because the Inquisition and the Navy say "no".  The space marines do not have the authority to use them aside from the Nova's.

This has EVERYTHING to do with balance.  Your bombardment cannons are already better then lances, and yet you want them. Your not getting them because you have a better weapon as it stands.  If you so desperately want lances, take the Nova Destroyer, which is the best lanceboat the imperium can field.

[lastspartacus]

I can't help but give a good natured smile when bits of fluff are cherry picked as being 'invalid due to the author liking what he wrote'

From purely fluff interest, why does the Astronomicon no longer reach there?

[Zelnik]

From the 5th edition rulebook, it states that it can barely be seen in the realm of ultramar.