Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development

[BaronIveagh]

... you guys don't know much about 40k at all, do you?

Sigoroth, basically, you're insisting that I'm only to refer to those parts of Armada that agree with you, and not allowed to point out the parts that don't, let alone other books that don't, such as Planetstrike, Apocalypse, Codex:WH, Codex: DH, Codex: BT and so on...

BTW: the aperture of a ground based defense laser (the ones in blue book) is only four feet.  It's a str 3 60cm lance.

Achem: further, the first Inquisitors were Space Marines (and some space marines apparently occasionally become Inquisitors to this day).  (Early Inq SM even came from the traitor legions, such as Captain Nathaniel Garro of the Death Guard).  Following the Heresy, despite being broken up, the entirety of the Imperium's military still answered to a Space Marine primarch, Guilliman, when he became the first Lord Commander Militant. 

I'd like to think that if Space Marines were the mind numbing threat to the Imperium that you paint them, the commanders immediately following the Heresy would never have tolerated this.  However, they wholly embraced it.

Since then, other Space Marines have been invited to serve as a member of the High Lords of Terra in the past, filling the same position.  Again, this does not bare out your suppositions of the role of Space Marines.  If Space Marines where the grand threat you claim, they would be closely monitored, which fluff does not bare out. 

The few times that there have been attempts to bring a space marine chapter to heel, have generally ended badly for all parties involved. 

Further: I would like to imagine that the High Lords of Terra are wise enough to realize that regular humans, not space marines, are the greatest threat to the Imperium.  After all, regular humans have done things like split the Imperium in half for 900 years during M35, created the Reign of Blood,  frequently cast off Imperial rule, joining in with Chaos and the Tau, and generally run amok. 

You have the admech, who only sort of worship the emperor, with their private armies, titan legions, private fleets and nearly no oversight.  Oh, and half of them defected to Chaos and laid siege to Terra.  Man, that sounds familiar somehow...

If the Space Marines were a defeated adversary, Ultramar would not exist as a semi-independent state, it would have been absorbed into Ultama Segmentum command.  Further, the Relictors would have been exterminated the FIRST time they were caught consorting with the Ruinous Powers, rather then just censured.

You decry my use of fluff, and are not the first ones to tell me to stop using those dirty 'facts' to punch holes in neat theories, as many graduate students have found out, it's a nice theory, but history (in this case the fictional history of the Imperium) does not bare out your suppositions.  The History of the Imperium clearly shows that no such actions have taken place.  Since the end of the Heresy, only a handful of chapters have ever been purged, and then only for things such as taking up arms against the Imperium, gross mutation, and taking up arms against the Imperium.  And occasionally not even that.  The Space Wolves did, after all, slaughter the Ecclesiarchy when they tried to force their way onto Fenris.  The Dark Angels have mysteriously annihilated entire worlds and never been asked to explain themselves.

These re not the actions of the dynamic you describe.  Your model is inaccurate.

[Zelnik]

I am officially going to step foreword and say that the current rules for the VBB are insane. A strength 20 bombardment cannon broadside? are you guys nuts!?

Giving this ship such firepower will land it squarely in a position of "most powerful vessel" in the game.

[Plaxor]

Yeah, I'm surprised they went that high. I probably would've done 8 or 10 side bombards, but eh.

Lets see.....

if 1 bombard=1.5 wbs (average against armor, but probably higher with extra crits) at 30 cm then it should be about str 8. However with the sacrifice of range I could see it going to strength 10.

Didn't Nate say the PDF was completed a while ago?

[Zelnik]

your still getting stupid huge power hitting from them, exceeding that of even the Tombship, an ideal shot from this damned thing gives you 18 dice, that hit and crit on fours.

Freaking stupid.

[barras1511]

Can we first decide the purpose of the SM fleet? Is it a ship to ship engagement fleet? Is it a blockade running fleet? Is it a transport fleet? Is it a pirate fleet? Can we get a concensus on what the fleet is designed to do before arming to the teeth and making it virtually invulnerable. What should be the movement  speed and turn rate of a ship be, whos name sake is a barge? The word venerable should have a game meaning of hard to kill over fire power out the wazoo! It means commanding respect by virtue of age, dignity , character, or position. Note the word respect. It does not say scare the shit out of your enemy with the most firepower of any ship in the game! If you up scale the fire power of a venerable in such a way you might as well paint the model with a bulls eye on it. It is a target that the enemy must focus upon when efficiency to the target is met. How on earth is a BB ever going to make it to old age with that much fire power on board? I have the choice between firing at a venerable and a normal BB. Which would you shoot? Lowering the fire power and upping the shields would allow a venerable to make it to its veteran status. Consider what the loss of each SM vessel means to its chapter with regards to its transportable resources inside it. Consider that soft points in the design of the fleet such as engines, weapons, coms, sheild arrays, AC bays and turrets. Each add to the lowering of the armour in that area. It is the reason modern tanks do not have any sponson weaponary. Also consider that each time you up the armour you create difficulties in manouvering and engine difficulties.

To the people designing the new SM Navy please consider these points before redeveloping the SM list. I really dont care about what the final fleet is. I only care that if you are going to design a fleet to forfill a role it does its role effectively and does not overlap too much into other specialist fleets roles.

[barras1511]

I did not call the SM enslaved. I called them defeated. Their way of life was destroyed by the Horus Heresy. They chose to accept the treaties offered too them and disolve into smaller chapters from the great legions. They chose to accept this manor of their reintergration within the Empire. They chose to allow penalties to be inflicted for breaching the Codex Astartes. They allowed Imperium to have supremacy over them. The legions are no longer the masters of their own destiny. Their way of life and the old laws by which they lived have been anulled. It is by this definition that I call them defeated.

To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War

Space Marines were an ally to the Imperium, a protector. Now they are trapped by it and the knowledge of what heresy would mean for the Empire. SM are a part of the empire. To keep the whole strong, the SM have made themselves weak to the point of being subserviant to the Empire.  They do not want civil war within the Empire. The Empire does not trust anyone. They see enemies everywhere. Look at what little it takes for a planet to be cleansed. All of those resources lost. The Empire is full of paranoia. There is only us and them. The Imperials will do anything to mantain control. Change from a group outside of the Empires direct control must be seen as a threat. Each Space Marines chapter is outside the Empires direct control, choosing to do the Empires bidding.  
You need to read the Dark Angel fluff if you can't understand where I am coming from. A SM chapter can choose to cut the Empire out of its activities. However it opens itself up to fury of the paranoid Empire who will interfere with it at every opportune moment and wipe that chapter from its history and its records at the first hint of it being a threat to the Empire.

[BaronIveagh]

I did not call the SM enslaved. I called them defeated. Their way of life was destroyed by the Horus Heresy. They chose to accept the treaties offered too them and disolve into smaller chapters from the great legions. They chose to accept this manor of their reintergration within the Empire. They chose to allow penalties to be inflicted for breaching the Codex Astartes. They allowed Imperium to have supremacy over them. The legions are no longer the masters of their own destiny. Their way of life and the old laws by which they lived have been anulled. It is by this definition that I call them defeated.

To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War

Space Marines were an ally to the Imperium, a protector. Now they are trapped by it and the knowledge of what heresy would mean for the Empire. SM are a part of the empire. To keep the whole strong, the SM have made themselves weak to the point of being subserviant to the Empire.  They do not want civil war within the Empire. The Empire does not trust anyone. They see enemies everywhere. Look at what little it takes for a planet to be cleansed. All of those resources lost. The Empire is full of paranoia. There is only us and them. The Imperials will do anything to mantain control. Change from a group outside of the Empires direct control must be seen as a threat. Each Space Marines chapter is outside the Empires direct control, choosing to do the Empires bidding.  
You need to read the Dark Angel fluff if you can't understand where I am coming from. A SM chapter can choose to cut the Empire out of its activities. However it opens itself up to fury of the paranoid Empire who will interfere with it at every opportune moment and wipe that chapter from its history and its records at the first hint of it being a threat to the Empire.

I have read the Dark Angels fluff and this was not the impression I got at all.  Or from the Black Templar's fluff, who actually have marginally more to hide.

Barras: the Imperium offered no treaties.  The decision to break up was done internally to the Space Marines, and was not universal (I point to the Space Wolves here, since, technically, their legion never broke up).  Most of them were already so badly mauled in the fighting on Terra or Isstvan III that only one or two chapters broke off from the original legion.  (Or, in the case of the Dark Angles, the internal war on Caliban)

And, again, you are using the lens of a single chapter, that has, among other things, annihilated entire planets to keep a secret, as well as attacked other space marine chapters.  I would suggest that killing entire planets for no known reason is a good way to get Inquisitorial attention.

And, actually things have to get quite bad before a world is cleansed.  Unless the Inquisitor is mad, or it's part of a scorched earth defense against the Tyrannids.

'Just as pronouncement of Exterminatus, it is our greatest failure when it comes to pass'. - Inq Felroth Gelt on the Ad Mech excommunicating a world, Creatures Anathema, pg 14

As far as what the Sm fleet is:

The real problem is the role of Strike Cruisers.  An SC is the first ship on scene, in advance of all other Imperial forces.  It has to be armed to meet whatever it might encounter.  It's primary mission will be to neutralize system defenses, including defense monitors and other starships, where possible, then drop the marines on strategic points to pave the way for an IG landing and provide fire support for those landings where needed.

Anyone wish to argue that his is not common procedure?

It's more likely that one would see escorts accompanying battle barges to offset their lack of mobility, or on long range patrols in areas that are interdicted rather then accompanying SC on the off chance they encounter something.  Almost all the fluff on the subject has SC traveling alone or in pairs.  Only in situations were large numbers of SM are being deployed do you tend to see them in fleet actions. 


As far as the VBB: Fire the Wave Motion gun.  I figured they'd make us miss the old SO. 

[Plaxor]

your still getting stupid huge power hitting from them, exceeding that of even the Tombship, an ideal shot from this damned thing gives you 18 dice, that hit and crit on fours.

Freaking stupid.

Yep... That's why it should probably be total FP 16, a less intimidating 14 dice on optimal shooting.

[BaronIveagh]

"The Ultramarines also added pure gunboats (albeit in limited number) to their fleet, something that they had always eschewed as incompatible with the Codex Astartes and their holy purpose." Battlefleet Gothic Magazine issue 15, Pg 23. 

To me, this line, from a Battlefleet Gothic source, again suggests that the main reason is the Codex.  But it also implies the codex is not inflexible in this area, as the Ultramarines are more likely to slit their own throats then deviate from it.

[lastspartacus]

Well the SO can get 20, but its a character ship.  16 max does sound more reasonable.

[BaronIveagh]

Well the SO can get 20, but its a character ship.  16 max does sound more reasonable.

Between this and FW's new BFG ships they've announced, I expect any semblance of balance in SM lists is boned.

[lastspartacus]

New BFG ships?  Don't worry, the HA can have their way with those too :p

[BaronIveagh]

New BFG ships?  Don't worry, the HA can have their way with those too :p

Not just new ships, new fleet lists too. Given how it's about the Badab war, what do you want to bet that they're SM lists?

[Plaxor]

New BFG ships?  Don't worry, the HA can have their way with those too :p

Have they actually announced these? Officially?

Not just new ships, new fleet lists too. Given how it's about the Badab war, what do you want to bet that they're SM lists?

Ugh.... Hopefully they'll make something not-marine with their lot. Maybe some renegades or IN vessels.

[Zelnik]

Okay kiddies, It's time for us 'not 40k' players to give you all some reference about space marines.

First things first, After the horus heresy, the space marines were removed from their place of power (for damn good reason) and had two major checks and balances placed on them. Number one is the Imperial Guard (who can still crush entire chapters under sheer numbers) and Number Two is the Imperial Navy (which are better equipped, better led, and have vastly greater numbers).

In the current fluff, space marines are surgical strike teams. In everyone's favorite 40k, they do extremely well, because this is the scale they were MEANT to fight with greater focus.  In Epic Armageddon, they function very differently, being able to focus huge power in small areas, but can be overwhelmed by other enemies. It takes a VERY skilled commander to win with Space Marines alone in Epic.

In BFG, The punishment for the horrors of the Heresy is their removal from the running of the empire and their restrictions to glorified troop transports as space craft. It is testimony to their great skill that they use them in space combat with such effectiveness. When it comes to pure ship destroying firepower, they must rely on their escorts (which are amazing to begin with).

This Leaves us with some facts established in the genuine fluff (codex's only, none of the black library fanwank)

1. The Imperial authority in space is the Imperial Navy. In every engagement, they should have an advantage against a space marine commander. Space marines must rely on their unorthodox strengths to win against such an opponent, because weapons alone WILL NOT SAVE YOU!

2. The Space Marines are the authority on planetary assault and exterminatus for the Imperial fleets. They are AMAZING at it, and should reflect this in their rules.

3. Lances are one of the major balancing factors which the Imperial Navy and AdMech keep a very close eye on.  The Navy does NOT like the Nova frigate, since it threatens their principle advantage against the Space Marines and the threat of another Heresy. These should never be common.

4. Space marines are perfect for hit and run attacks and boarding actions. They should always be amazing in such circumstances.

5. Space marine fleets should NOT have access to imperial navy ships as a -normal- part of their fleet. Reserves, yes, normal part, no.  This goes for Chaos ships as well, aside from the venerable battle barge listed in the Forces of Chaos list.  I don't care what your black library says. It's not common, and the Imperial Navy would NOT stand to allow any chapter to hold on to battleships, even if it was 'a gift from the emperor' (I am looking at YOU space wolves!). AFTER the Heresy, they would be more likely to blow it to atoms then let a less-then-trustworthy chapter hold such incredible power. Also, they would not field such a rare treasure in such small scale engagements that we are throwing down.

6. Space Marines get their skill from discipline and constant training. This does not equate to a high attack rating however.  They should have superb leadership, but a poor attack rating.

7. Space Marines -do not follow orders- from Inquisitors. They can go along with their plans, but no marine has to follow the orders of an inquisitor.  Grey Knights work with the Inquisition because it suits their purposes.

8. On this scale, chapter differences mean squat in boarding actions and leadership values.  On average, 2000 points of Space Wolves will cause JUST AS MUCH CARNAGE as 2000 points of Ultramarines, Blood Angels, Blood Ravens, Space Sharks, Astral Knights or Rainbow Warriors. We are fighting on a scale that can BARELY be converted to 40k scale. This is why there are no fancy rules per chapter.

9. No single ship in the Space Marines list should be more powerful overall then an imperial counterpart. Barges cannot be stronger then Battleships, Strike Cruisers cannot be more powerful then cruisers. Venerable vessels and escorts are the ONLY exception to this rule (as escorts are allowed to carry combat level firepower and venerable vessels hail from an ancient time where they were permitted long range firepower)

10. Bombardment cannons are ship combat weapons by accident, far less then purpose.  They were meant to bombard fortified enemy positions on a broad and messy scale.  It is a sign of the incredible power of marine gunners that they can be used against enemy ships.  They should not be so potent as they are against ordnance though

11. Thunderhawks are good, but not super-good. They are just-fine-where-they-are.