Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Yes, but that's called 'greater tech heresy' and possible sentences for it include being turned into a servitor if they get caught by the forgeworld admech (and that's one of the nicer sentences  Others include arcoflagellation or having your mechanicus implants stripped from you.  Not a lot left after that...).  They also get hunted down by the Ordo Xenos, who actually take a slightly LESS dim view of it, and simply torture then kill them.

Not if it is sanctioned by the AM.

So, while a RT might be able to recruit enough people to run his ship with such abominations on board, I highly doubt that he's going to find an entire dockyard willing to look the other way.  Too many eyes and too much risk involved.  It's like the Inquisition: yes, there are radical inquisitors, but odds are good they try and keep it as quiet as possible, and don't usually go marching through the center of town with their daemonhost in tow, bleeding warpfire all over the place.  Or, at least, if they do, they probably don't last long before a puritan catches up with them.

Again, not if it is sanctioned by the AM. Keeping things quiet or from the AM would be much more risky.

Well, to do that they'd have to actually claim a world or system.  They do have a handful of Chapter Keeps on various worlds they recruit from, but don't rule any of them.  Representatives of the Dark Angels visit each recruiting world once within a normal human's lifetime, and take the strongest juveniles from the population. Caliban is about the only star system they claim outright, and it's a huge asteroid field since they lanced the planet to death following the Horus Heresy.  Otherwise they are entirely fleet based.

The Rock is really the only facility that might be large enough to do so.

So keep the shipyard in the same system as Caliban but not on Caliban itself. Really it isn't that far a stretch of the imagination. It can even be in a system just beside Caliban, perhaps in an asteroid field.

And, No, it has nothing to do with prioritization.  The Dark Angels are paranoid in ways that make Inquisitors look carefree due to the 'big secret' which they've murdered their fellow space marines and entire planetary populations to keep hidden.  Now, would they trust the admech, who, by their lights, don't even worship the Emperor, when they don't even trust other space marines outside their own successor chapters?

In the interest of getting the ships, I'm sure they could and could reach an accomodation. Business is business as they say, even with superhuman beings of the future. There will be political and business wheelings and dealings. They may be paranoid (and AM can be as secretive as the DA with their tech), but that doesn't preclude them from making a deal with the AM. Makes things much more simpler too as it cuts through a lot of the bureaucratic red tape and the DA wouldn't be sanctioned in any way since they would still be keeping to the Code and as long as each respects each other's area of expertise even though suspicious of each other, there wouldn't be much problems.

[Vaaish]

But what do space marines do when they hit a titan?  Other then the land raider, there isn't a whole lot they have that will even really put much of a dent even in a scout titan like the Warhound.  A lance strike would be ideal for just this situation.

It's also perfect for another Space Marine specialty, the decapitation strike, particularly if, say, the enemy HQ, which needs flattened, is in close proximity to the spaceport, which would be required intact for followup landings by IG.  A quick lance strike followed by drop pod assault on the space port and you are in buisness.  Particularly good against underground bunkers that bombardment might not reach.

Ideal, maybe, but not available and therefore irrelevant in epic. In epic, marines are effective enough against warhounds by performing engage actions with supporting formations. Against reavers there is more difficulty and against warlords, you basically need two detachments of terminators teleporting in and an air assault on the retain if you've prepped the target the previous turn to have a chance. So, yeah, marines get it tough when they hit a titan but it's possible and anything outside of an imperator or warlord isn't too bad or can be ignored if taking it out isn't accomplishing an objective.

at best so far all you can say is there might be a chapter than could have a strike cruiser with a lance. You've got nothing showing they are standard issue or that even one in ten have a lance. Beyond that you have nothing to prove that instances where a lance is used, the supporting ship isn't something akin to a VBB or allied IN.  I think the cost of the upgrade very fairly represents the rarity.

[BaronIveagh]

But what do space marines do when they hit a titan?  Other then the land raider, there isn't a whole lot they have that will even really put much of a dent even in a scout titan like the Warhound.  A lance strike would be ideal for just this situation.

It's also perfect for another Space Marine specialty, the decapitation strike, particularly if, say, the enemy HQ, which needs flattened, is in close proximity to the spaceport, which would be required intact for followup landings by IG.  A quick lance strike followed by drop pod assault on the space port and you are in buisness.  Particularly good against underground bunkers that bombardment might not reach.

Ideal, maybe, but not available and therefore irrelevant in epic. In epic, marines are effective enough against warhounds by performing engage actions with supporting formations. Against reavers there is more difficulty and against warlords, you basically need two detachments of terminators teleporting in and an air assault on the retain if you've prepped the target the previous turn to have a chance. So, yeah, marines get it tough when they hit a titan but it's possible and anything outside of an imperator or warlord isn't too bad or can be ignored if taking it out isn't accomplishing an objective.

at best so far all you can say is there might be a chapter than could have a strike cruiser with a lance. You've got nothing showing they are standard issue or that even one in ten have a lance. Beyond that you have nothing to prove that instances where a lance is used, the supporting ship isn't something akin to a VBB or allied IN.  I think the cost of the upgrade very fairly represents the rarity.

"With the precision typical of the Astartes, the three Strike Cruisers opened fire upon the co-ordinates given by Sebastius.  Three blinding thunderbolts of pure white destruction speared down into the plaza with enough force to level a city block."
"The clean up operation was foul and difficult work.  With the Daemon king reduced to nothing more then a smoking crater by the lance strikes from the Marines Vindicant spacecraft, the curse of the plague was lifted." - Planetstrike, pg 64

To throw a little more promethium on the fire, the mission was under the direct command of a lord inquisitor.

[Sigoroth]

Well, first of all, as someone who's held a position where my job was to bust politicians, for the government, I can say that, no, not everyone dragged before me and put to the question was as you describe.  And, as someone it was in their interests to be paranoid of, no, not all of them were, and some of them should have been.  

Firstly, this is criminal paranoia, versus political paranoia. I think you'll find that the latter type is what we're talking about here. Secondly, we're not talking about today's society. We're talking the highest echelons of a bureaucracy of extreme size and disposition.

And, again, you don't grasp that industrial level brainwashing to stifle free thought does not work.   Governments for millennia have tried to formulate a means by which thought could be regimented into patterns they desired.  Control of education, propaganda, show trials, public executions, torture, control of the media, spin doctors, and even tactics such as taking the publics children from them to be raised by the state.  None of these were successful.

Actually, these have been tremendously successful. In fact, the current method of suppressing the population works quite well. However, imagine the Spanish Inquisition to the power 10,000. That's what we're talking about here. There is no safe haven, no respite from authority where thinking people or political dissidents can flee to to develop alternative ways of existing. Even if there were they'd need to then return and expose the general populace of the Imperium to these alternatives. Some places may become isolated for long enough for these processes to occur, but as soon as they reintegrate with the Imperium they're destroyed. The oppression of the Imperium has lasted over 10,000 years. I think they've got this formula worked out.

As far as the the whole Space Marines/Emperor paradigm: You're forgetting a key item of Imperial belief, that the Emperor is not dead.  IF he's not dead, how could Space Marines have killed him?  

No, he's dead. The sarcophagus that is the Golden Throne merely provides an anchor for his soul, such that it doesn't drift away in the warp. But since souls go to the warp when people die and the Emperor is in the warp, that means he's dead. He certainly isn't up and striding around all over the Imperium as he used to before being mortally wounded by Horus (note mortally wounded, ie, a death blow).

And the Mechanicus breaching the Imperial palace with titans had nothing to do with that?  It wasn't the Space Marines at the helm of Dies Irae...  

Nope. The AdMech are nothing.

Remember that during the Heresy the Mechanicus was also split, as the SM legions were.  So why would they not be  threat.  After all, they were running around blowing up stars, a weapon there really isn't a lot of defense against, only 2500 years before the present.  That's 'yesterday' as far as the Imperium goes.  

Because they're not warriors. They're not sailors. They're not tacticians. They have almost no political aspirations beyond the acquisition of technology. They are a force to be directed by others, not a threat in their own right.

And Space Marines don't go around blowing up stars, with one noted exception.

So? They do go around destroying planets. Those AdMech were defeated by an Emperor BB. Big deal. Also, the fact is that the Imperium are not paranoid about the AdMech, even if you think they should be. It is the SMs that were broken up, the SMs that have their numbers limited, the SM that have restrictions on their fleets. Not the AM.

Which are outnumbered by an individual sector fleet, of which there are 28k+ of.

Well then, if the IN have such superiority then they have the capability to police their policy of no lances for SMs.

And how many other chapters will side with them.  And what is the likelyhood that they might respond by simply seizing the IN ships in boarding operations?  As well as what sort of IG contingent they can bring to the table as well.  Also, what the larger ramifications are to enforcing such a decree, such as regional destabilization.  

This just proves my point. The IN need clear dominance in the skies. The SM are demagogues that can easily sway a lot of people to their side, through the force of their personalities or presence. Individual chapters can ally together, etc. In a full scale engagement there are bound to be ships lost to boarding actions too. This just reinforces the need to keep the SM weak in space. You can't acknowledge all this and then say that it's perfectly fine to give SMs warfleets!

Except that 1 on 1, a Nova defeating a defense monitor is a mathematical impossibility unless they board.  And lances are better against weapons platforms then WBs are, due to their +6 armor.  

What the hell has 1 on 1 got to do with anything? Who takes a single escort?

Anyway, other races have WBs and lances. SMs have WBs and BC. So what you'd be replacing would be the BC, not the WBs. In which case you would lose efficiency by swapping. Even if you were to swap out the WBs for some reason, you still lose out against 6+ armour when on LO. The only gain when using lances is when not locked on against 6+ armour, and it's still minimal. And there's no way a SM ship would have lances and BCs anyway.

Except that Epic makes it clear that a lance is a pinpoint attack and other orbital bombardment weapons use a huge template.  If you are using it for close fire support, the lance is much superior.  Further, again, a strike cruiser is a first response vessel.  It would be going into an unknown situation and must be able to deal with a variety of circumstances, which a lance does better then a BC.

Utter load of crap. Space Marine ships don't have lances. If Space Marine ships can make pinpoint orbital attacks then you don't need lances to make pinpoint attacks.

Also, what Epic calls a lance and what BFG calls a lance are surely different. A lance attack merely means a pinpoint attack. In 40k it's represented by ignoring armour above 12. In BFG it's represented by rolling a single die per point of strength which hits on a 4+, in orbital strikes it's represented by not using a template. It doesn't mean it's the same weapon! An actual anti-ship lance would be inappropriate for use as a an orbital strike, unless you wanted a particular building vaporised!

[Sigoroth]

"With the precision typical of the Astartes, the three Strike Cruisers opened fire upon the co-ordinates given by Sebastius.  Three blinding thunderbolts of pure white destruction speared down into the plaza with enough force to level a city block."
"The clean up operation was foul and difficult work.  With the Daemon king reduced to nothing more then a smoking crater by the lance strikes from the Marines Vindicant spacecraft, the curse of the plague was lifted." - Planetstrike, pg 64

To throw a little more promethium on the fire, the mission was under the direct command of a lord inquisitor.

Sounds like a plasma cannon barrage to me. Besides, some crap from a random book is meaningless. As an anti-ship weapon SMs shouldn't get access to lances. Between bombardment cannon and their weapon batteries I'm certain they have more than enough orbital bombardment capabilities. The term Lance in BFG just means a weapon system capable of reaching out with a (relatively) pinpoint attack to cut through an enemy ship. Many different weapon types might constitute a lance. These are often described in many Xenos entries, such as those in the RT fleet list, Eldar, DE and Tau, etc. Different weapon systems that constitute a weapon type.

Other weapon systems, which are just as diverse in their make up, typically rely upon saturating an area to pull off their damage. When targeting a stationary object however (such as a ground target when in geosync orbit) then these weapon systems are actually just as accurate as those classified as lances.

[Vaaish]

I'd put forward that lance is a misnomer in that last sentence based on everything we know from other sources about lance strikes. Since it was enough force to level a city block, we aren't talking about precision weapons. Next, we know that such precise targeting of lances on targets that small is not possible (see epic, this has not been changed and is still official. Also IAV2 the original damacles strike always scatters). Finally we know from epic, BFG, and even the old damacles rules that the lance strike causes very little collateral damage. For example, the pinpoint attack doesn't harm other units even if they are in base contact. Also the ordnance template used in 40k is only slightly larger than a rhino. And in BFG lances are described as punching a hole in the target or cutting it in two not blowing up around it like WB.

Since the plantstrike fluff you posted is the only bit calling it a lance yet the description doesn't match with any of the existing descriptions of lance strikes, that means you either accept it's a lance and the description is wrong or that it's not a lance and the name is incorrect in the fluff.

[Sigoroth]

I'd put forward that lance is a misnomer in that last sentence based on everything we know from other sources about lance strikes. Since it was enough force to level a city block, we aren't talking about precision weapons. Next, we know that such precise targeting of lances on targets that small is not possible (see epic, this has not been changed and is still official. Also IAV2 the original damacles strike always scatters). Finally we know from epic, BFG, and even the old damacles rules that the lance strike causes very little collateral damage. For example, the pinpoint attack doesn't harm other units even if they are in base contact. Also the ordnance template used in 40k is only slightly larger than a rhino. And in BFG lances are described as punching a hole in the target or cutting it in two not blowing up around it like WB.

Since the plantstrike fluff you posted is the only bit calling it a lance yet the description doesn't match with any of the existing descriptions of lance strikes, that means you either accept it's a lance and the description is wrong or that it's not a lance and the name is incorrect in the fluff.

This is my point, a 'lance' attack merely means that it's a precision attack for that game system. Not that it's the one weapon across all scales. A lance attack on the scale of 40k does not equal a lance attack on the scale of epic let alone a lance attack on the scale of BFG. So a 'lance' is not a particular weapon, it's a classification that differs according to scale.

[BaronIveagh]

I'd put forward that lance is a misnomer in that last sentence based on everything we know from other sources about lance strikes. Since it was enough force to level a city block, we aren't talking about precision weapons. Next, we know that such precise targeting of lances on targets that small is not possible (see epic, this has not been changed and is still official. Also IAV2 the original damacles strike always scatters). Finally we know from epic, BFG, and even the old damacles rules that the lance strike causes very little collateral damage. For example, the pinpoint attack doesn't harm other units even if they are in base contact. Also the ordnance template used in 40k is only slightly larger than a rhino. And in BFG lances are described as punching a hole in the target or cutting it in two not blowing up around it like WB.

Since the plantstrike fluff you posted is the only bit calling it a lance yet the description doesn't match with any of the existing descriptions of lance strikes, that means you either accept it's a lance and the description is wrong or that it's not a lance and the name is incorrect in the fluff.

Sebastius, the marine commander who calls in the strike survives, despite being fairly close, possibly only a few yards away, as well as other space marines with him, as the strike comes in.  It hits a greater daemon of Nurgle.  That's a much smaller target then a titan, admittedly, or it's a REALLY BIG daemon (description is unclear, though it picks up a landraider and squashes some people with it, and swats assault marines 'like flies'). Three separate strike cruisers are firing lances at the target.  And three lances firing simultaneously would probably take out a city block, if one fired at the building on the end, one fired in the middle, an one hit the other end, though in this case they're all hitting the same target.  

Strength of a weapon has little to do with it's precision: a plasma scalpel can burn right through you, but they're used in delicate surgery.

This is my point, a 'lance' attack merely means that it's a precision attack for that game system. Not that it's the one weapon across all scales. A lance attack on the scale of 40k does not equal a lance attack on the scale of epic let alone a lance attack on the scale of BFG. So a 'lance' is not a particular weapon, it's a classification that differs according to scale.

Well, let's see... it's a space marine strike cruiser... or three... firing their lances...  at a ground target...  which is vaporized.  

Eldar did not pop out of the woodwork to fire brightlances.  The text is VERY (for once) clear that this is a lance strike, fired by strike cruisers, not allied IN, not mysterious unknown escorts, and not a BC, and not the property of traitor marines.  AND it's ENTIRELY SANCTIONED THE INQUISITION.  It is not Black Library. It IS an offical canon GW rulebook.  A NEW one even.

And since when are SCs equipped with plasma weapons (since a single plasma battery is a str 5 [at least] weapon? [And, more when was the last time a plasma weapon was used as a planetary bombardment weapon?  Since according to fluff they're disrupted by a planets EM field, IIRC])

BTW: there is no lance strike for specifically for Planetstrike.

[Vaaish]

bastius, the marine commander who calls in the strike survives, despite being fairly close, possibly only a few yards away, as well as other space marines with him, as the strike comes in.  It hits a greater daemon of Nurgle.  That's a much smaller target then a titan, admittedly, or it's a REALLY BIG daemon (description is unclear, though it picks up a landraider and squashes some people with it, and swats assault marines 'like flies'). Three separate strike cruisers are firing lances at the target.  And three lances firing simultaneously would probably take out a city block, if one fired at the building on the end, one fired in the middle, an one hit the other end, though in this case they're all hitting the same target.  

then it cannot be a lance as such. Nothing refutes epic that pinpoint attacks, which are tied to BFG load outs as fairly synonymous with lances, are unable to target anything smaller than a baneblade on the surface as this is part of an official ruleset that has not been superseded by a later edition. the described strike also seems to hit with very little deviation if any at all which is again at odds with every type of orbital strike in 40k including the old damacles rules for a lance strike. If these are indeed lances the fluff is at odds with pre-existing explanation and since it is not isolated to just a conflict with the Epic pinpoint attack you have to declare that this does not fit with the rest of the canon.

The simplest explanation is that the writer or the observer of the event simply mis identified the bombardment as a lance strike or that it was later embellished to give the heroic stance as part of Imperial propaganda which, given the uplifting primer, is not far outside the realm of reason.

[BaronIveagh]

bastius, the marine commander who calls in the strike survives, despite being fairly close, possibly only a few yards away, as well as other space marines with him, as the strike comes in.  It hits a greater daemon of Nurgle.  That's a much smaller target then a titan, admittedly, or it's a REALLY BIG daemon (description is unclear, though it picks up a landraider and squashes some people with it, and swats assault marines 'like flies'). Three separate strike cruisers are firing lances at the target.  And three lances firing simultaneously would probably take out a city block, if one fired at the building on the end, one fired in the middle, an one hit the other end, though in this case they're all hitting the same target.  

then it cannot be a lance as such. Nothing refutes epic that pinpoint attacks, which are tied to BFG load outs as fairly synonymous with lances, are unable to target anything smaller than a baneblade on the surface as this is part of an official ruleset that has not been superseded by a later edition. the described strike also seems to hit with very little deviation if any at all which is again at odds with every type of orbital strike in 40k including the old damacles rules for a lance strike. If these are indeed lances the fluff is at odds with pre-existing explanation and since it is not isolated to just a conflict with the Epic pinpoint attack you have to declare that this does not fit with the rest of the canon.

The simplest explanation is that the writer or the observer of the event simply mis identified the bombardment as a lance strike or that it was later embellished to give the heroic stance as part of Imperial propaganda which, given the uplifting primer, is not far outside the realm of reason.

Or, if you stop and read the daemon's description, which makes it about the size of a warhound titan, since it picks up and tosses aside a landraider and is using a tree as a one handed club.  A lance strike can hit an object as big as a warhound, last I checked.


 

[Plaxor]

Why would a warhound use a tree as a club when it could use a landraider as a club, way heavier and harder.

Poor writing....

[BaronIveagh]

Why would a warhound use a tree as a club when it could use a landraider as a club, way heavier and harder.

Poor writing....

It uses the landraider to smash some people when it first appears, possibly for dramatic effect.  

And landraiders are also awkwardly shaped to be clubs.  I think the daemon made the right call here.

Since the SM calls in co-ordinates, like they do in 40k for a lance strike, and it hits a giant object, like in epic, I would say that it is a lance strike.  

And, a warlord titan sized object might bludgeon something with a landraider, but a warhound is a bit too small...

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Simplest explanation: the author is wrong. Period. Just like a lot of authors have been wrong.

[lastspartacus]

Books are one thing, but its funny that every codex/rulebook blurb with a lance on an SM ship is shrugged off as 'well, he didn't mean a LANCE lance, you know'.  Its getting really funny.

Horizon, who is writing the anti-lance portion of 'should lances be allowed on space marine capital ships'?

[horizon]

No portions. Different articles.

So far no one stepped up.


It is getting funny how any small tidbit is turned into: Marine capital ships should get lances.