Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development

[BaronIveagh]

You are caught up in a slippery slope fallacy.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope
'If some chapters flirt with the limitation by taking a few lances, then all chapters will have all lance ships, and will build a fleet that will rival the IN'
They are certainly a long way from that, currently, with only about 12 capital ships in a chapter.
Marines can make escorts, but not capital ships, or at least there is nothing written about it.

First of all, there is no slippery slope fallacy here. There is no middle ground. This is not a reasonable society. If you suggest that the Imperium is incapable of enforcing this limitation now then it stands to reason that they will become less able to enforce it later.

Secondly, even if it were an example of the slippery slope fallacy (which it is not) it's irrelevant. This is because this is how the Imperium thinks. They don't think "Oh hey, what's a few lances? So they could only give us a severe mauling if they rebelled instead of destroying us if they only had a few lances ... Oh, and I'm sure that we won't need to police it, they'll restrict themselves to just a few, it's all good, no need to worry". We're talking about paranoia of clinical levels here. Even if there were some enforcable middle ground then they're still not going to take it, they fear far too much.

If you think that they wouldn't enforce it then you know nothing about psychology. Inefficiency and contradiction has nothing to do with psychology. That's just bureaucracies for you. The people who run those bureaucracies are still human. The fact is, if what you said were true, that the Imperium either can't do anything to stop the SM or couldn't give a fuck then there simply would be no codex restrictions. The SMs would just do whatever the fuck they wanted. Who's going to stop them? They can build warfleets and increase their command to legion status or beyond and carve out their own empire or do whatever. No one can or would stop them according to your logic.

There is rarely a 'line in the sand' in the Imperium, rather a hazy field where, depending on whose in charge of the situation, a decision is made at some point.  And a few lances does not an inquisitorial appointment make, read the fluff that has been quoted to you, and it will be clear.
Your current argument is 'Tell me one reason marines would have lances'  To which there is a reply, reasons are given, and you reply with 'Tell me one reason why marines would have lances.'

What is the difference between lance escorts and lances on a small percentage of capital ships?
DO YOU REALIZE MARINES ALREADY HAVE AND USE LANCES?  

If you keep referring to the psycology of the Imperium, you must know, as I said in earlier posts, that it is incredibly inefficient and contradictory.
Read the reasons given if you feel like it, or give me something besides opinion and conjecture.

The Nova. This is itself a strong argument against SMs getting lances. They already have access to Imperium approved lances in the form of the Nova. Therefore whatever need there might be (and I have seen none) it is already met. As for why the Imperium would allow the Nova, because it's an escort. It's not a threat. Lances on a SM capital ship is a huge threat. On an escort, not a threat. Despite which it is only granted grudgingly and there are factions that don't want the SMs to have even that. What makes you think that it'd be fine on a capital ship when it is so worrying on an escort?

When asked for reasons why SMs should get lances you can't provide any? What, don't want to repeat yourself? You make me repeat myself. So why shouldn't you?

Here, take your very best reasons and list them all in a new reply under "reasons why SM should get lances".

And there are factions that want the space marines to have a lot more (in Armada, even).

Sigoroth, I might point out that your entire argument hinges on your perception of the Imperium.  You make two key assumptions: The Imperium is run by ignorant people suffering from paranoia at near delusional levels, and B) They they perceive the Space Marines as the greatest threat to their position.  

Let's start with B first:

Which is a greater threat: the admech with their unlimited private fleet, ability to create virus bombs, titan legions, and vast armies of skittari or the relatively self limiting number of Space Marines?  Abaddon blew up one star with three Blackstones, however, in 550 M37, a rogue group of tech priests decided to exterminate humanity, and went on a rampage with a similar supernova causing weapon from the Dark Age of Technology for a decade with the near extermination of most of the rimward sectors of Segmentum Obscuris before the Imperium can slip an Emperor Class battleship into the pocket dimension that their leadership is using as a headquarters(WH:40 5th Ed, Pg125)

I would suggest that, by comparison, Space Marines might be somewhat low on the High Lords list of serious threats.  Particularly considering that lances or not, with the exception of the Black Templars, a 2000 point fleet, while a fraction of even a sector's IN forces, would be the bulk of a single chapters forces.  Not because of the inability to produce ships, but rather the inability to produce more Space Marines.  It can, after all, take centuries for a chapter to recover from even moderate losses.


A) The Hight Lords of Terra.

Aside from the Period preceding the Age of Apostasy, known as the Nova Terra Interregnum for the fact that the Imperium was divided in half between the High Lords of Terra and Ur-Council of Nova Terra in Segmentum Pacificus, the High Lords have run the show.

The Lord Commander Militant: Leader of the Imperium's military.  This position has, on occasion in fluff, been held by a Space Marine (Guilliman being the first person to hold the office).  Paranoid: Maybe. Probably directed outward as much as toward his immediate underlings.  Educated: Probably

The Fabricator General: Representative of the Priesthood of Mars.  Paranoid: Probably (again, directed at those under him gunning for promotion)  Educated: Yes

The Inquisitorial Representative: Name speaks for itself.  Paranoid: Yes (and with good reason) Educated: Almost certainly, and in things far beyond most others.

The Master of the Adminstratum: Head Bureaucrat.    Paranoid: Definitely of his underlings.  Educated: most likely.


I would suggest that while almost certainly paranoid, the High Lords are not uneducated and are, in fact, master politicians, understanding the need for certain institutions to have leeway, even if they're a possible threat to their own power base.  For an example of how they have handled things in the past, take the example of Admiral Usurs.  Usurs was too powerful to execute without plunging the Imperium into civil war, so he was instead tasked with exploring the intergalactic gulf.  After a decade of reports back, he was never heard from again.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

It's not exactly secret.  The administratum sends ships from all over to be scrapped there.  

Then this is done with AM presence and supervision and most likely, any changes are not usurping the AM's territory yet.

Again, the Adeptus Terra does not enforce the Codex (that would, broadly speaking, include the Inquisition).  It does not have the weight of law outside of chapters that follow it.

Sigoroth has already answered this and I am, unsurprisingly, agreeing with him in all his points in his reply.

No, they usually aren't much outside 20km long.  Think more 'planet' or 'solar system' sized.  Anything that can't threaten more then a single planet they tend to fob off on the local admech temple or the Inquisition.  (Creatures Anathema, pg 14)

Uh huh. Picky picky. Regardless of whether it is 20km long or not, AM still have jurisdiction over such things, local or overall as you have pointed out yourself.

Leman Russ Annihilator.  The whole shebang fits in the turret.  And, the space it occupies is probably thinner, but takes up more overall room.  

The lascannon fits in the turret but the power supply to it does not necessarily have to accompany it in the turret.

Well, if you want to go all the way back to smelting the steel, sure, it'd be time consuming, but not impossible.  As far as building a car from car parts, no, that's still quite easy if you know what each part is and how it works.  Heck, it's not even really that hard to fabricate most of them.  My father thought it would be cute to build a replica jeep once in his shop.

But that is the point of the debate. Can the AM build their own ships without any assistance from the AM whatsoever, both technical knowledge and technical parts. That's been my point all along. Repairs are one thing. Building something from the keel up is another.

If that were true, then tech heresy would be impossible.  However, since it's rampant, according to fluff, the obviously the admech is not the only source of information or they're not as reluctant to share it as you think.

Not impossible but hard to do and not so grand a scale as constructing warships.

So, you're saying that 'Any proof that I am wrong is incorrect because it disagrees with my interpretation.'  

Nope, I've made my points and it's obvious you don't want to agree with it. The Nova entry sums it all and no amount of conjecture about BTs ship constructing capability can overcome that entry. Nova is rare and is taken with the most exception by the IN. Even the SC is pointed out as being rare. And combining those two instances, it means any lance on an SC, even if it exists, would be virutally nil.

SM can win already with its present set up without lances on their cap ship. The BCs can make up for it, just that it's not as straightforward to use compared to lances. It takes a higher learning curve but they can win and this include Ship vs Ship and other fleet action scenarios not involving Planetary Assault and Exterminatus. In those last two scenarios, they are very strong.

What's currently needed is an upgrade to their defensive stats to make them more survivable. And so, in fluff and game balance and performance, they do not need any lances on their cap ship esp since they can use a VBB already.

Those have ever been my reasons and I see nothing in the current SM profile both in fluff and game balance which shows they NEED to have lances on their standard cap ships.

[BaronIveagh]

Then this is done with AM presence and supervision and most likely, any changes are not usurping the AM's territory yet.

Sorry, the people involved are named.  The head of the yards at the time that the rogue trader Iradas Holden took over the yards and expanded them was a local voidfarer by the name of Haargoth Agamar, who was not a tech priest.  Holden is stated to have an extensive interest in the shipyards of the Calixis sector, and pulls strings to have ships designated for the breakers to be sent to SR-651.  Agamar later kills Holden and (re)takes over total control of the operation.

Not impossible but hard to do and not so grand a scale as constructing warships.

Then how do pirates get their ships, since many types of raider are not STC craft?  The entry for iconoclast suggests that all sorts of escorts are made all over by practically anyone.  The entry for the Hunter suggests that the Dark Angels opted to build it as they had difficulty getting ships from imperial shipyards and forgeworlds.

Nope, I've made my points and it's obvious you don't want to agree with it. The Nova entry sums it all and no amount of conjecture about BTs ship constructing capability can overcome that entry. Nova is rare and is taken with the most exception by the IN. Even the SC is pointed out as being rare. And combining those two instances, it means any lance on an SC, even if it exists, would be virutally nil.

And the Hunter entry on the previous page conflicts with your assertion that SM can't build their own ships.  Since it states that the DA built them because they were having a hard time getting ships from the admech et al.

And, all SM ships are rare.  Again, you're conveniently forgetting that a single 2k point fleet is the bulk of an entire chapter's naval forces, with possible exception of BTs, the same fleet for IN is a fraction of a single sector's forces.  Compared to, say, the Lunar or the Murder (or, dear god, the Sword), yes, they're rare.  Hundreds of them are not produced per year throughout the Imperium.  (In all likelihood, the only time's they're produced is when a new chapter is founded or an old one looses a ship)

SM can win already with its present set up without lances on their cap ship. The BCs can make up for it, just that it's not as straightforward to use compared to lances. It takes a higher learning curve but they can win and this include Ship vs Ship and other fleet action scenarios not involving Planetary Assault and Exterminatus. In those last two scenarios, they are very strong.

What's currently needed is an upgrade to their defensive stats to make them more survivable. And so, in fluff and game balance and performance, they do not need any lances on their cap ship esp since they can use a VBB already.

Yes, because we all know that Space Marines need 5 shields and 5 turrets on their +6 armor.   Would you like 'Reactive Hulls' while you're at it?

[lastspartacus]

If you mean the standard 4 shields on the battleship, and 2 shields on the SC, admiral, then I'd consider that the most important thing right now.

I'll retire from the lance debate for now, if you are good about that article, Horizon.  I think it would be best to just present both sides, without arguing against each other.  Gets the base thoughts out better.

[Sigoroth]

And there are factions that want the space marines to have a lot more (in Armada, even).

Sigoroth, I might point out that your entire argument hinges on your perception of the Imperium.  You make two key assumptions: The Imperium is run by ignorant people suffering from paranoia at near delusional levels, and B) They they perceive the Space Marines as the greatest threat to their position.  

I make the assumption that the Imperium is run by politicians. Politicians number 1 priority is to maintain their power. When you see politicians argue on TV today they turn into a bunch of retarded morons who'll say or do anything to get into or keep power. These are supposedly educated people. Supposedly they have the best interests of the people at heart. This isn't true of course, or else there would be more bipartisan action as a consequence. Politicians are, by nature, paranoid. They would be even more paranoid in the sort of society we're talking about.

Speaking of which, we are talking about a society that perform rituals and invoke spirits to turn a computer on or drive a car. One where free thought is not just oppressed or even just criminalised, but which could actually lead to corruption by Chaos. This is a society of racial purists and religious extremists. Xenophobes and zealots are the normal population. So yes, the High Lords are both ignorant and paranoid.

The single greatest threat to the Imperium in all of its history has been the SMs. They killed their God. Of course, they also defended him and ultimately saved the Empire, but the lesson they learned was that they needed to control the SMs. They could not be allowed to do as they pleased.

Let's start with B first:

Which is a greater threat: the admech with their unlimited private fleet, ability to create virus bombs, titan legions, and vast armies of skittari or the relatively self limiting number of Space Marines?  Abaddon blew up one star with three Blackstones, however, in 550 M37, a rogue group of tech priests decided to exterminate humanity, and went on a rampage with a similar supernova causing weapon from the Dark Age of Technology for a decade with the near extermination of most of the rimward sectors of Segmentum Obscuris before the Imperium can slip an Emperor Class battleship into the pocket dimension that their leadership is using as a headquarters(WH:40 5th Ed, Pg125)

Space Marines. Without question they're the greater threat. The AdMech have never killed the Emperor.

I would suggest that, by comparison, Space Marines might be somewhat low on the High Lords list of serious threats.  Particularly considering that lances or not, with the exception of the Black Templars, a 2000 point fleet, while a fraction of even a sector's IN forces, would be the bulk of a single chapters forces.  Not because of the inability to produce ships, but rather the inability to produce more Space Marines.  It can, after all, take centuries for a chapter to recover from even moderate losses.

And Space Marines will continue to be low on the Imperiums list of active threasts ... so long as they continue to do as they're told. Anyway, while one such fleet may be a pittance, there are over a thousand of those fleets.

A) The Hight Lords of Terra.

Aside from the Period preceding the Age of Apostasy, known as the Nova Terra Interregnum for the fact that the Imperium was divided in half between the High Lords of Terra and Ur-Council of Nova Terra in Segmentum Pacificus, the High Lords have run the show.

The Lord Commander Militant: Leader of the Imperium's military.  This position has, on occasion in fluff, been held by a Space Marine (Guilliman being the first person to hold the office).  Paranoid: Maybe. Probably directed outward as much as toward his immediate underlings.  Educated: Probably

The Fabricator General: Representative of the Priesthood of Mars.  Paranoid: Probably (again, directed at those under him gunning for promotion)  Educated: Yes

The Inquisitorial Representative: Name speaks for itself.  Paranoid: Yes (and with good reason) Educated: Almost certainly, and in things far beyond most others.

The Master of the Adminstratum: Head Bureaucrat.    Paranoid: Definitely of his underlings.  Educated: most likely.


I would suggest that while almost certainly paranoid, the High Lords are not uneducated and are, in fact, master politicians, understanding the need for certain institutions to have leeway, even if they're a possible threat to their own power base.  For an example of how they have handled things in the past, take the example of Admiral Usurs.  Usurs was too powerful to execute without plunging the Imperium into civil war, so he was instead tasked with exploring the intergalactic gulf.  After a decade of reports back, he was never heard from again.

To an extent you are right here. Yes, they're master politicians. This comes with its own pitfalls as pointed out above. Understanding that certain institutions need leeway? Yep. Which is probably why they don't even try to come down hard on the Space Marines for every little infraction of Codex doctrine. I mean, what does it matter if Space Wolves are a little more surly than some?

This leeway is already a given. This is why it would be impractical to even try to enforce the entire codex strictly. No, they'd only sweat the important stuff. Such as limiting their numbers, denying them warfleets and ensuring there's no corruption to the geneseed that could result in Chaos mutation. This last one is hard to judge and even harder to detect since that sort of stuff is all handled in-house, but the Inquisition looks out for it nonetheless. So the major concerns regarding codex stuff are:

1) will they turn?
2) if they do, how big a turn are we talking?
3) can we stop em in space before boots hit the ground?

So these are the areas in which the codex is most enforced, and since the space superiority of the IN is the only backstop that Imperium has it's the most vital to protect. There would be no "leeway" in this area. However, I'm still waiting to see why the SM need lances. Their job is to land troops. They have heavily armoured transports for this very purpose. Sometimes there're defences to get through, and they have both WBs and BC to deal with these, as well as torpedoes and thunderhawks. All these weapons are better against static defences than lances are. Hell, the WB/BC combination is better than the alternatives even when you consider the interference between the two systems. So that just leaves mobile defences, such as system ships, defence monitors, etc.

Well, apart from being quite able to run a blockade they have lances on their Nova, which is fine for hunting down a few escorts. They have their Thunderhawks too. They have Hunters to help clear the way as well. There's no need for lances on their cap ships for this.

What other possible situation could they need them for? Orbital bombardment? Nope, just about any gun will do for that. A weapon the size of a BFG lance isn't going to deliver that type pinpoint strike in 40k scale. Which means its no more accurate than some other weapon type fired at a sub-maximum power or with a more accurate round, etc.

So that leaves, what, to shoot at warships with? Well that's exactly the reason they shouldn't get it. They shouldn't be fighting warships. They should be calling in the IN if there's a substantial ship based threat. Otherwise it's a case of blockade run -> drop troops -> bug out -> wait for reinforcements. They're Space Marines. That's what they do.

[Sigoroth]

If you mean the standard 4 shields on the battleship, and 2 shields on the SC, admiral, then I'd consider that the most important thing right now.

I'll retire from the lance debate for now, if you are good about that article, Horizon.  I think it would be best to just present both sides, without arguing against each other.  Gets the base thoughts out better.

I presume this article will actually have some reasons for SMs to get lances. Beyond the "I think they could" argument you've tried to put forward. Well, I'll have to wait till then to find out I suppose, since you won't state them here.

[BaronIveagh]

I make the assumption that the Imperium is run by politicians. Politicians number 1 priority is to maintain their power. When you see politicians argue on TV today they turn into a bunch of retarded morons who'll say or do anything to get into or keep power. These are supposedly educated people. Supposedly they have the best interests of the people at heart. This isn't true of course, or else there would be more bipartisan action as a consequence. Politicians are, by nature, paranoid. They would be even more paranoid in the sort of society we're talking about.

Speaking of which, we are talking about a society that perform rituals and invoke spirits to turn a computer on or drive a car. One where free thought is not just oppressed or even just criminalised, but which could actually lead to corruption by Chaos. This is a society of racial purists and religious extremists. Xenophobes and zealots are the normal population. So yes, the High Lords are both ignorant and paranoid.

The single greatest threat to the Imperium in all of its history has been the SMs. They killed their God. Of course, they also defended him and ultimately saved the Empire, but the lesson they learned was that they needed to control the SMs. They could not be allowed to do as they pleased.

Well, first of all, as someone who's held a position where my job was to bust politicians, for the government, I can say that, no, not everyone dragged before me and put to the question was as you describe.  And, as someone it was in their interests to be paranoid of, no, not all of them were, and some of them should have been. 

And, again, you don't grasp that industrial level brainwashing to stifle free thought does not work.   Governments for millennia have tried to formulate a means by which thought could be regimented into patterns they desired.  Control of education, propaganda, show trials, public executions, torture, control of the media, spin doctors, and even tactics such as taking the publics children from them to be raised by the state.  None of these were successful.

As far as the the whole Space Marines/Emperor paradigm: You're forgetting a key item of Imperial belief, that the Emperor is not dead.  IF he's not dead, how could Space Marines have killed him? 

And the Mechanicus breaching the Imperial palace with titans had nothing to do with that?  It wasn't the Space Marines at the helm of Dies Irae... 

Remember that during the Heresy the Mechanicus was also split, as the SM legions were.  So why would they not be  threat.  After all, they were running around blowing up stars, a weapon there really isn't a lot of defense against, only 2500 years before the present.  That's 'yesterday' as far as the Imperium goes. 

Space Marines. Without question they're the greater threat. The AdMech have never killed the Emperor.

And Space Marines don't go around blowing up stars, with one noted exception.

And Space Marines will continue to be low on the Imperiums list of active threasts ... so long as they continue to do as they're told. Anyway, while one such fleet may be a pittance, there are over a thousand of those fleets.

Which are outnumbered by an individual sector fleet, of which there are 28k+ of.

This leeway is already a given. This is why it would be impractical to even try to enforce the entire codex strictly. No, they'd only sweat the important stuff. Such as limiting their numbers, denying them warfleets and ensuring there's no corruption to the geneseed that could result in Chaos mutation. This last one is hard to judge and even harder to detect since that sort of stuff is all handled in-house, but the Inquisition looks out for it nonetheless. So the major concerns regarding codex stuff are:

1) will they turn?
2) if they do, how big a turn are we talking?
3) can we stop em in space before boots hit the ground?

And how many other chapters will side with them.  And what is the likelyhood that they might respond by simply seizing the IN ships in boarding operations?  As well as what sort of IG contingent they can bring to the table as well.  Also, what the larger ramifications are to enforcing such a decree, such as regional destabilization. 

So these are the areas in which the codex is most enforced, and since the space superiority of the IN is the only backstop that Imperium has it's the most vital to protect. There would be no "leeway" in this area. However, I'm still waiting to see why the SM need lances. Their job is to land troops. They have heavily armoured transports for this very purpose. Sometimes there're defences to get through, and they have both WBs and BC to deal with these, as well as torpedoes and thunderhawks. All these weapons are better against static defences than lances are. Hell, the WB/BC combination is better than the alternatives even when you consider the interference between the two systems. So that just leaves mobile defences, such as system ships, defence monitors, etc.

Well, apart from being quite able to run a blockade they have lances on their Nova, which is fine for hunting down a few escorts. They have their Thunderhawks too. They have Hunters to help clear the way as well. There's no need for lances on their cap ships for this.

Except that 1 on 1, a Nova defeating a defense monitor is a mathematical impossibility unless they board.  And lances are better against weapons platforms then WBs are, due to their +6 armor. 

What other possible situation could they need them for? Orbital bombardment? Nope, just about any gun will do for that. A weapon the size of a BFG lance isn't going to deliver that type pinpoint strike in 40k scale. Which means its no more accurate than some other weapon type fired at a sub-maximum power or with a more accurate round, etc.

So that leaves, what, to shoot at warships with? Well that's exactly the reason they shouldn't get it. They shouldn't be fighting warships. They should be calling in the IN if there's a substantial ship based threat. Otherwise it's a case of blockade run -> drop troops -> bug out -> wait for reinforcements. They're Space Marines. That's what they do.

Except that Epic makes it clear that a lance is a pinpoint attack and other orbital bombardment weapons use a huge template.  If you are using it for close fire support, the lance is much superior.  Further, again, a strike cruiser is a first response vessel.  It would be going into an unknown situation and must be able to deal with a variety of circumstances, which a lance does better then a BC.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Sorry, the people involved are named.  The head of the yards at the time that the rogue trader Iradas Holden took over the yards and expanded them was a local voidfarer by the name of Haargoth Agamar, who was not a tech priest.  Holden is stated to have an extensive interest in the shipyards of the Calixis sector, and pulls strings to have ships designated for the breakers to be sent to SR-651.  Agamar later kills Holden and (re)takes over total control of the operation.

So they're named. So what? Authors have the liberty of naming and killing off their characters. I've read lots of books where that happens. And just because someone took over the yards and expanded them does not mean that the AM doesn't know about it. Just the mere fact that one has to pull strings means the AMs would know some things about it if not in detail.

Then how do pirates get their ships, since many types of raider are not STC craft?  The entry for iconoclast suggests that all sorts of escorts are made all over by practically anyone.  The entry for the Hunter suggests that the Dark Angels opted to build it as they had difficulty getting ships from imperial shipyards and forgeworlds.

And the Hunter entry on the previous page conflicts with your assertion that SM can't build their own ships.  Since it states that the DA built them because they were having a hard time getting ships from the admech et al.

Pirates get their ships the usual way: by capturing them. A shipyard won't just sell them to any pirate obviously. And no, the Iconoclast entry does not suggest that all sorts of escorts are made by practically anyone at all. Here's the exact quote: "The Iconoclast is similar in design to a variety of small escort ships turned out by almost every shipyard." And who would control most of the shipyards in the 40k universe? Why the AMs.

As for the Hunter entry, again you are mistaken. All it says is that "The Hunter class destroyer, although based on a design long available to almost all Space Marine Chapters, was pioneered primarily by the Dark Angels, whose deep distrust of other factions within the Imperial heirarchy made acquisition of vessels from shipyards and forgeworlds far more problematic than for most other chapters."

Nothing in it says anything about the DA building the ships. They pioneered it, yes but pioneering does not automatically mean building it. It just means, they were the ones who made extensive use of it. Most likely, they have their own shipyards within their territory but these would still be under the control of the AM. Nothing in there suggests otherwise.

And, all SM ships are rare.  Again, you're conveniently forgetting that a single 2k point fleet is the bulk of an entire chapter's naval forces, with possible exception of BTs, the same fleet for IN is a fraction of a single sector's forces.  Compared to, say, the Lunar or the Murder (or, dear god, the Sword), yes, they're rare.  Hundreds of them are not produced per year throughout the Imperium.  (In all likelihood, the only time's they're produced is when a new chapter is founded or an old one looses a ship)

And the point of this post?

Yes, because we all know that Space Marines need 5 shields and 5 turrets on their +6 armor.   Would you like 'Reactive Hulls' while you're at it?

Have I suggested anything of the sort? In order to answer Lastspartacus query and your sarcastic reply, I do believe the standard Battle Barge SHOULD get the additional shield and turret from the existing profile with additional points. I also believe the SC SHOULD get 2 shields at the expense of 1 TH strength for the same points as I don't believe the prow has the space to carry 2 TH squadrons (which would be the equivalent of 4 regular AC squadrons).

I have stated those two points and I do believe it would be enough to help them be more competitive in fleet actions giving the SC the survivability it lacks because of having only 1 shield and 6 HP.

Those are what they NEED. Unlike lances which are what you WANT.

[BaronIveagh]

So they're named. So what? Authors have the liberty of naming and killing off their characters. I've read lots of books where that happens. And just because someone took over the yards and expanded them does not mean that the AM doesn't know about it. Just the mere fact that one has to pull strings means the AMs would know some things about it if not in detail.

Never said they didn't know about it.  Just said they were not involved in it.  And, All of FFG's stuff is getting stamped canon by GW, so...

Pirates get their ships the usual way: by capturing them. A shipyard won't just sell them to any pirate obviously. And no, the Iconoclast entry does not suggest that all sorts of escorts are made by practically anyone at all. Here's the exact quote: "The Iconoclast is similar in design to a variety of small escort ships turned out by almost every shipyard." And who would control most of the shipyards in the 40k universe? Why the AMs.

As for the Hunter entry, again you are mistaken. All it says is that "The Hunter class destroyer, although based on a design long available to almost all Space Marine Chapters, was pioneered primarily by the Dark Angels, whose deep distrust of other factions within the Imperial heirarchy made acquisition of vessels from shipyards and forgeworlds far more problematic than for most other chapters."

Nothing in it says anything about the DA building the ships. They pioneered it, yes but pioneering does not automatically mean building it. It just means, they were the ones who made extensive use of it. Most likely, they have their own shipyards within their territory but these would still be under the control of the AM. Nothing in there suggests otherwise.

Yes, they capture from Imperials ships that Imperials have never used...  Hmm... 

Also:

Not true: if the admech control all the shipyards, again, how are the Rogue Traders able to commit tech-heresy by adding all that xenotech to their systems?  Other then the Tau, no alien race is going to let a Rogue Trader into their yards for a casual refit (assuming they have yards).  You have not yet explained how it is possible for them to use technology from actively hostile (or even dead) races such as the Yuvath or the Fra'al without being burned at the stake if they have no private shipyards without admech oversight.

Except the fact they talk about shipyards and forgeworlds.  IF they don't trust the admech on a forgeworld or in a shipyard, why would they trust them on the Rock?  Answer: they wouldn't!  That's like saying 'We don't trust crooks in a bar, but we trust them in our home!' 

[Vaaish]

Never said they didn't know about it.  Just said they were not involved in it.  And, All of FFG's stuff is getting stamped canon by GW, so...

I don't see how you can pull the name of two people who fought over administrative control of the shipyards and use that to support the claim no AdMech were involved in the operation.

[BaronIveagh]

Never said they didn't know about it.  Just said they were not involved in it.  And, All of FFG's stuff is getting stamped canon by GW, so...

I don't see how you can pull the name of two people who fought over administrative control of the shipyards and use that to support the claim no AdMech were involved in the operation.

Because the abuses of tech in the description of the place would never be tolerated by the admech.  (the kindest word for waht they're describing the machine spirits going through would be 'abused'.  Most of the facility sounds as if orks would not seem out of place there)  The names were just to point out that they were not the ones running the salvage yard (which was D'Art's assertion).  And, from the article, at this point, no one is fully in charge, as Agmar has disappeared.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Never said they didn't know about it.  Just said they were not involved in it.  And, All of FFG's stuff is getting stamped canon by GW, so...

And you think AM won't be involved in it in one way or another? The possible loss if not theft of tech which AM lay claim upon?

Yes, they capture from Imperials ships that Imperials have never used...  Hmm... 

It's not as if these ships are rare. These ships were built in the thousands. They may still be built even now, even if the IN do not use them in their fleets. It still doesn't mean the shipyards do not have AMs supervising them.

Also:

Not true: if the admech control all the shipyards, again, how are the Rogue Traders able to commit tech-heresy by adding all that xenotech to their systems?  Other then the Tau, no alien race is going to let a Rogue Trader into their yards for a casual refit (assuming they have yards).  You have not yet explained how it is possible for them to use technology from actively hostile (or even dead) races such as the Yuvath or the Fra'al without being burned at the stake if they have no private shipyards without admech oversight.

AM are constantly in the search for tech knowledge. The thing with AM is they will look the other way as long as they can get that knowledge even with RTs refitting their ships. I wouldn't be surprised if they had backroom dealings with RTs for discovering or acquiring of tech, both lost STCs or alien tech.

Except the fact they talk about shipyards and forgeworlds.  IF they don't trust the admech on a forgeworld or in a shipyard, why would they trust them on the Rock?  Answer: they wouldn't!  That's like saying 'We don't trust crooks in a bar, but we trust them in our home!' 

Does a shipyard have to be ON the Rock? The shipyard could be in a system under the DA jurisdiction where they can keep an eye on the AM and the AM can still have control over what they do best. What that phrase means is that they feel they are not being prioritized by the shipyards and forgeworlds and so they provide a system which can be used as their shipyard in a place with a lot of resources. AM will still control the production processes even if the DA owns the system. It's a fair enough compromise.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Because the abuses of tech in the description of the place would never be tolerated by the admech.  (the kindest word for waht they're describing the machine spirits going through would be 'abused'.  Most of the facility sounds as if orks would not seem out of place there)  The names were just to point out that they were not the ones running the salvage yard (which was D'Art's assertion).  And, from the article, at this point, no one is fully in charge, as Agmar has disappeared.

Not necessarily never as long as AM are in the know of it. It's when they are not in the know that they get upset.

[Vaaish]

Except that Epic makes it clear that a lance is a pinpoint attack and other orbital bombardment weapons use a huge template.  If you are using it for close fire support, the lance is much superior.  Further, again, a strike cruiser is a first response vessel.  It would be going into an unknown situation and must be able to deal with a variety of circumstances, which a lance does better then a BC.

Actually this is blatantly untrue. While epic does indicate the lance is a pinpoint attack, it is completely ineffective for close fire support since it can only target enemy WE. That means the pinpoint attack can't help you at all if you need to bombard and entrenched infantry company or a Leman Russ company. It's ONLY capable of targeting things like baneblades or larger stuff like titans. The bombardment weapons are what you use when you need close fire support usually in concert with some form of airborne attack either via planetfall or thunderhawks. These let you predetermine the location of the barrage, like an objective or critical terrain feature, and the follow up the attack by retaining with an airborne assault element.

Now, in epic it should be noted that NEITHER the battlebarge NOR the strike cruiser have access to pinpoint attacks. Since there are no pinpoint attacks, then there are no lances on marine vessels according to epic.

[BaronIveagh]

AM are constantly in the search for tech knowledge. The thing with AM is they will look the other way as long as they can get that knowledge even with RTs refitting their ships. I wouldn't be surprised if they had backroom dealings with RTs for discovering or acquiring of tech, both lost STCs or alien tech.

Yes, but that's called 'greater tech heresy' and possible sentences for it include being turned into a servitor if they get caught by the forgeworld admech (and that's one of the nicer sentences  Others include arcoflagellation or having your mechanicus implants stripped from you.  Not a lot left after that...).  They also get hunted down by the Ordo Xenos, who actually take a slightly LESS dim view of it, and simply torture then kill them.

So, while a RT might be able to recruit enough people to run his ship with such abominations on board, I highly doubt that he's going to find an entire dockyard willing to look the other way.  Too many eyes and too much risk involved.  It's like the Inquisition: yes, there are radical inquisitors, but odds are good they try and keep it as quiet as possible, and don't usually go marching through the center of town with their daemonhost in tow, bleeding warpfire all over the place.  Or, at least, if they do, they probably don't last long before a puritan catches up with them.

Does a shipyard have to be ON the Rock? The shipyard could be in a system under the DA jurisdiction where they can keep an eye on the AM and the AM can still have control over what they do best. What that phrase means is that they feel they are not being prioritized by the shipyards and forgeworlds and so they provide a system which can be used as their shipyard in a place with a lot of resources. AM will still control the production processes even if the DA owns the system. It's a fair enough compromise.

Well, to do that they'd have to actually claim a world or system.  They do have a handful of Chapter Keeps on various worlds they recruit from, but don't rule any of them.  Representatives of the Dark Angels visit each recruiting world once within a normal human's lifetime, and take the strongest juveniles from the population. Caliban is about the only star system they claim outright, and it's a huge asteroid field since they lanced the planet to death following the Horus Heresy.  Otherwise they are entirely fleet based.

The Rock is really the only facility that might be large enough to do so.

And, No, it has nothing to do with prioritization.  The Dark Angels are paranoid in ways that make Inquisitors look carefree due to the 'big secret' which they've murdered their fellow space marines and entire planetary populations to keep hidden.  Now, would they trust the admech, who, by their lights, don't even worship the Emperor, when they don't even trust other space marines outside their own successor chapters?

Actually this is blatantly untrue. While epic does indicate the lance is a pinpoint attack, it is completely ineffective for close fire support since it can only target enemy WE. That means the pinpoint attack can't help you at all if you need to bombard and entrenched infantry company or a Leman Russ company. It's ONLY capable of targeting things like baneblades or larger stuff like titans. The bombardment weapons are what you use when you need close fire support usually in concert with some form of airborne attack either via planetfall or thunderhawks. These let you predetermine the location of the barrage, like an objective or critical terrain feature, and the follow up the attack by retaining with an airborne assault element.

Now, in epic it should be noted that NEITHER the battlebarge NOR the strike cruiser have access to pinpoint attacks. Since there are no pinpoint attacks, then there are no lances on marine vessels according to epic.

Never said either one did.  The entire argument was that A) lances are not precise, which they are, and that they are not useful for fire support, which they are.  For example, a Devastator squad or three, or a deep striking assault squad can be used to good effect to neutralize that leman russ company.  A few whirlwinds will keep that infantry pinned.  But what do space marines do when they hit a titan?  Other then the land raider, there isn't a whole lot they have that will even really put much of a dent even in a scout titan like the Warhound.  A lance strike would be ideal for just this situation. 

It's also perfect for another Space Marine specialty, the decapitation strike, particularly if, say, the enemy HQ, which needs flattened, is in close proximity to the spaceport, which would be required intact for followup landings by IG.  A quick lance strike followed by drop pod assault on the space port and you are in buisness.  Particularly good against underground bunkers that bombardment might not reach.