Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development

[BaronIveagh]

Rubbish, Sig.  You are letting your apparent hatred of people who like marines cause you to produce embarassing posts.

There is nothing embarrassing in my posts. Every one of my posts has been based upon reason, something that you SM fanboys have yet to bring to the table.

Where's the proof to back up your much stronger claims?  Or maybe I am misunderstanding what Baron is arguing.  If its an all-lance SM fleet, that shouldn't be.  But I think he is arguing for limited numbers, like I am.  Check my above posts, since you seem to have not read them yet.

P1 - The lance is purely and totally an anti-ship weapon.
P2 - Space marines have absolutely no need for this weapon to fulfil their role.
P3 - The Imperium is paranoid about excessive SM power.
P4 - The main focus for this paranoia is space power.
P5 - The Imperium is as described in fluff, paranoid, superstitious, merciless, self-righteous.

C - The Imperium would never allow SMs to have lances on their SCs and BBs.

You cannot hold to be true the premises given above while holding the conclusion to be false. In which case you would need to take issue with one or more of the premises. P1 is unarguable. Hmm, so is P2. Aaaand the main fluff for the entire 40k universe centres around P3, P4 and P5. So they're unarguable too. There's my superior proof.

This is far far FAR superior to some whiny SM fanboy saying "weeell, if you look at it from this point of view you might think it plausible for SMs to be able to make their own ships in which case they might be able make lances and looky looky, some dickhead author who knows nothing about the classification of a lance in BFG terms says they got 'em and and and in 40k they even say lance strike look look, that's proof".

Ok, well: P1 is not true.  P2 is questionable.  P3 has a kernel of truth to it.  P4 is false, P5 is true.  However, once again:

'The Adeptus Terra never felt it necessary to enforce the Codex absolutely.  Indeed, it is doubtful that it could.' - Codex: Ultramarines, page 10 (author: Rick Priestly, the creator of the entire 40k universe.  If you want to argue he doesn't know his fluff, please, by all means.)

The High Lords of Terra do not enforce the codex.  This includes the Inquisition (as they are among the High Lords of Terra). 

So, tell me again how a statement in the codex is going to bring down the wrath of those that have never felt the need to enforce it in 10,000 years? 

The Inquisition has only been concerned with the balance of power within the Imperium since the Reign of Blood during the Age of Apostasy. However, the Inquisition is also not a unified organization, and has as many sub-sects trying to upset the balance of power as they do ones trying to maintain it. 

[commander]

I repeat.

• Check the inner workings of the AM. Then judge if THEY would agree to changing a holy STC. VERY UNLIKELY.

• Has a tech marine ever reached magos level (or higher) in the fluff? If yes, they can build ships. But I've seen NONE.

That brings me to say:

• No, SM cannot build ships; they have to ASK the AM.

• No, SM cannot install lances upon their ships; they have to ASK the AM.

[BaronIveagh]

I repeat.

• Check the inner workings of the AM. Then judge if THEY would agree to changing a holy STC. VERY UNLIKELY.

• Has a tech marine ever reached magos level (or higher) in the fluff? If yes, they can build ships. But I've seen NONE.

That brings me to say:

• No, SM cannot build ships; they have to ASK the AM.

• No, SM cannot install lances upon their ships; they have to ASK the AM.

Ok:

• Space Marine battle barges, such as Eternal Crusader have been altered from their holy STC pattern.  This is direct out of fluff.  

Therefor, if the Admech would never have approved it, it would have to have come from somewhere else.

Therefore: Space Marines have the ability to build their own ships.

[commander]

Who says AM would NEVER approve? Only that it is VERY UNLIKELY and thus when AM agrees, with a certain clear goal in mind, it still is a very, very rare thing to happen (also in fluff).
IF the SM could do/build everything they wanted, they would all be at legion strength again, isn't it? WITH a fleet of their own liking.
That's not how the Imperium works, also in fluff.

[barras1511]

I believe Sigoroth likes the diversity of the BFG universe and the differences in the fleets. This is where I believe the majority of his resistance is coming from (correct me if I am wrong!). His only problem is trying to come from a fluff perspective instead of a logical one. (Reason cannot be based on fanasy so therefore fluff can not be logical. There can be however logic in fluff) To keep this game fun and interesting the fleets must have differences. SM have their own lances in the shape of their BC. What your suggesting with your proposed changes to the fleet lists is to make SM like every other fleet out there instead of being individual. I love the SM fleet. I just hate it being torn to pieces by lance heavy fleets. Fuck the lances. Give us shields! With sheilds the problems with the fluff and game mechanics are mostly resolved. Lances on SM fleets are superfluous. I do believe in customization so if you really want lances on your ships... Talk to your opponent about house rules. After all this game is meant to be fun. And the fluff would support your arguement to do this to YOUR fleet.

[commander]

That's what is in the PDF; extra shields for protection. And lances at a hefty price.

[Sigoroth]

Ok, well: P1 is not true.

Yes it is.

P2 is questionable.

No, it's not.

P3 has a kernel of truth to it.

A kernel? This is the single greatest threat to humanity.
 

P4 is false

No, it's not.

P5 is true.  However, once again:

'The Adeptus Terra never felt it necessary to enforce the Codex absolutely.  Indeed, it is doubtful that it could.' - Codex: Ultramarines, page 10 (author: Rick Priestly, the creator of the entire 40k universe.  If you want to argue he doesn't know his fluff, please, by all means.)

Absolutely I'll argue it. It says there nowhere that the Imperium don't have the power to blow the fuckin SM out of the skies for being arrogant enough to challenge their power. In fact, it says the opposite. It says they don't have the power to enforce the codex absolutely. So all those tiny provisions in the codex that a hell of a lot of chapters ignore, that's what can't be enforced. What can be enforced is limiting SM space power. Why can this be enforced? Because the Imperium has the IN and the SM don't. They already have the power to enforce this. Why would it be enforced? This I have gone into in extremis.

The entire codex cannot be enforced absolutely, and there's no need for it to be. The restriction on SM space power can be enforced and there's great need.

The High Lords of Terra do not enforce the codex.  This includes the Inquisition (as they are among the High Lords of Terra). 

So, tell me again how a statement in the codex is going to bring down the wrath of those that have never felt the need to enforce it in 10,000 years? 

This is false. Of course they enforce the codex. You said it yourself in the fluff you just quoted by Rick Priestly. The Adeptus Terra never felt it necessary to enforce the Codex absolutely. This means they've enforced it in part. Therefore it is enforceable in parts. Presumably these parts would be the ones worth getting all het up about.

The Inquisition has only been concerned with the balance of power within the Imperium since the Reign of Blood during the Age of Apostasy. However, the Inquisition is also not a unified organization, and has as many sub-sects trying to upset the balance of power as they do ones trying to maintain it. 

No, they've been concerned for longer than that. The Age of Apostasy merely extended the scope of their concerns. The Space Marines are an extraordinarily powerful sub-section of the Imperium. So powerful that even split into tiny factions they have the power to ignore Inquisitors for the most part. No IN admiral or governor could do that. SMs are the greatest warriors of the Imperium, have the best equipment and training and are superhuman on top of it all. Compared to the rest of man they're demigods. Their potential to rip apart the Imperium is far greater than that of any other institution. They've done it before. The result being the interring of their God-Emperor into his sarcophagus! Before this revolt their God walked amongst them! Compared to this the Age of Apostasy was a blip on the radar.

[Sigoroth]

I believe Sigoroth likes the diversity of the BFG universe and the differences in the fleets. This is where I believe the majority of his resistance is coming from (correct me if I am wrong!).

My resistance comes from this idea being completely utterly and totally stupid. No reason whatsoever for SMs to get lances. Shit tonnes of reason for them not to. Of course I'm going to resist.

His only problem is trying to come from a fluff perspective instead of a logical one. (Reason cannot be based on fanasy so therefore fluff can not be logical. There can be however logic in fluff)

I'm not sure that fluff cannot be logical, a lot of fantasy turned out to be quite possible (look at Star Trek for example, predicted a lot of technological advancements). However, yes, the point is that the fluff has to be internally consistent. You can't have a premise and then completely act contrary to that premise.

To keep this game fun and interesting the fleets must have differences. SM have their own lances in the shape of their BC. What your suggesting with your proposed changes to the fleet lists is to make SM like every other fleet out there instead of being individual. I love the SM fleet. I just hate it being torn to pieces by lance heavy fleets. Fuck the lances. Give us shields! With sheilds the problems with the fluff and game mechanics are mostly resolved. Lances on SM fleets are superfluous. I do believe in customization so if you really want lances on your ships... Talk to your opponent about house rules. After all this game is meant to be fun. And the fluff would support your arguement to do this to YOUR fleet.

More than just diversity or balance, giving SM lances would break the fluff. You would never be able to use the background to justify anything ever again. Why can't Eldar get 6+ armour, 5 shields and a heap of hits? SMs can have lances ...

[lastspartacus]

I repeat.

• Check the inner workings of the AM. Then judge if THEY would agree to changing a holy STC. VERY UNLIKELY.

• Has a tech marine ever reached magos level (or higher) in the fluff? If yes, they can build ships. But I've seen NONE.

That brings me to say:

• No, SM cannot build ships; they have to ASK the AM.

• No, SM cannot install lances upon their ships; they have to ASK the AM.

Well, there is always looting existing systems from fighting chaos and renegades, a common practice in most fleets.  It certainly wouldn't be common, nor would it be common for admech to allow lances, but remember the admech isn't the organization that would be most concerned about marine lances.  Still, uncommon, so thats why it should be uncommon but there, since the Nova can have them. 

They wouldn't approach legion strength with a few lances.  It takes more than that to make the sluggish Imperium move, so lots of lances, or a few thousand marines, and then if they don't hide it well, there will be an inquisitorial appointment, most likely.

As to marines not being able to build ships, there is no evidence that they build their own cap ships.  But they do build their own escorts, some that have lances. 

@Sig: You can make the statement 'completely and utterly stupid' as your thesis statement all you want, but you won't get anywhere.  Your shit tonnes of reasons are a few points of conjecture, and our no reasons are points you refuse to acknowledge.  You instead fight with exaggerations, misquoting, and assumed intent.  No one is wanting lance heavy marine fleets, but a few examples could absolutely exist.  This does nothing to dilute the flavor of the fleet.

[commander]

I repeat.

• Check the inner workings of the AM. Then judge if THEY would agree to changing a holy STC. VERY UNLIKELY.

• Has a tech marine ever reached magos level (or higher) in the fluff? If yes, they can build ships. But I've seen NONE.

That brings me to say:

• No, SM cannot build ships; they have to ASK the AM.

• No, SM cannot install lances upon their ships; they have to ASK the AM.

Well, there is always looting existing systems from fighting chaos and renegades, a common practice in most fleets.  It certainly wouldn't be common, nor would it be common for admech to allow lances, but remember the admech isn't the organization that would be most concerned about marine lances.  Still, uncommon, so thats why it should be uncommon but there, since the Nova can have them. 

They wouldn't approach legion strength with a few lances.  It takes more than that to make the sluggish Imperium move, so lots of lances, or a few thousand marines, and then if they don't hide it well, there will be an inquisitorial appointment, most likely.

As to marines not being able to build ships, there is no evidence that they build their own cap ships.  But they do build their own escorts, some that have lances. 

@Sig: You can make the statement 'completely and utterly stupid' as your thesis statement all you want, but you won't get anywhere.  Your shit tonnes of reasons are a few points of conjecture, and our no reasons are points you refuse to acknowledge.  You instead fight with exaggerations, misquoting, and assumed intent.  No one is wanting lance heavy marine fleets, but a few examples could absolutely exist.  This does nothing to dilute the flavor of the fleet.

As I see it, this is my opinion, the SM can have access to shipyards which can build SM ships BUT under license from the AM. That means that the AM RUN the shipyard or that Tech priests are involved in controlling that the license is not abused.
AM cannot control what is done in the chapter forges (Monastery- fortress) but they can and will control shipyards.

[lastspartacus]

Possibly, Commander, but no fluff one way or another for that.  Adjutants make alot of sense at least for aid in shipyards.
The Hunter entry though indicates that marines have their own methods of constructing at least escorts.  If this is some facility that is part of the fortress monastery or some small shipyard orbiting a fiefdom, I don't know, but the indication is there.

[Sigoroth]

@Sig: You can make the statement 'completely and utterly stupid' as your thesis statement all you want, but you won't get anywhere.  Your shit tonnes of reasons are a few points of conjecture, and our no reasons are points you refuse to acknowledge.  You instead fight with exaggerations, misquoting, and assumed intent.  No one is wanting lance heavy marine fleets, but a few examples could absolutely exist.  This does nothing to dilute the flavor of the fleet.

Wow. Just wow. You still don't think that it's stupid? Look, there comes a point where there's a line in the sand. There are only so many things that the Imperium can tolerate from the SMs. If you think it's OK for them to refit one of their SCs with lances, then where does it stop? If one chapter can do it, all can do it. If on one SC then why not another? If they're allowed on their cruisers, escorts, legacy ships and fortress monasteries then why not on their battlebarges too? If every chapter is allowed to put lances on all their ships then how does the IN stop the SM from building fleets that can take on the IN?

This is the inevitable end result. Even if you presume that the SMs won't even go this far, the Imperium certainly wouldn't make that assumption. If they don't limit the SMs here and now, then they can't limit them at all in space. This would make it tremendously more important to limit the SM numbers within a chapter, as this becomes the last and only safeguard against rampant SM power.

Now, how do you suppose the Imperium would manage to enforce this last safeguard? SMs are almost unbeatable by the IG on the ground. It's not likely that SMs will submit to a census. If the Imperium doesn't have the trump up their sleeve of clear dominance in space then how are they going to stop the SMs from doing as they please? With other SMs? This will result in just another civil war.

The fact is that those in power just would not allow this to come to pass. They would stop the SMs getting lances. It's that simple. If a chapter tries to push the issue then it would be far better for the Imperium to simply destroy that chapter rather than risk the alternatives. Fear is key.

Now, setting that aside for just a minute. Name me one reason why SMs should get lances. Can you do that? So far a whole lot of crap about how they could possibly get them (none of which is conclusive) and some dubious fluff depicting them with lances (authors definitions of lances may be different from those of game designers, and even if not, easily dismissable as people with more enthusiasm than sense). Nothing to suggest they should have lances though.

So, tell me, why should they have lances?

[lastspartacus]

You are caught up in a slippery slope fallacy.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope
'If some chapters flirt with the limitation by taking a few lances, then all chapters will have all lance ships, and will build a fleet that will rival the IN'
They are certainly a long way from that, currently, with only about 12 capital ships in a chapter.
Marines can make escorts, but not capital ships, or at least there is nothing written about it.

There is rarely a 'line in the sand' in the Imperium, rather a hazy field where, depending on whose in charge of the situation, a decision is made at some point.  And a few lances does not an inquisitorial appointment make, read the fluff that has been quoted to you, and it will be clear.
Your current argument is 'Tell me one reason marines would have lances'  To which there is a reply, reasons are given, and you reply with 'Tell me one reason why marines would have lances.'

What is the difference between lance escorts and lances on a small percentage of capital ships?
DO YOU REALIZE MARINES ALREADY HAVE AND USE LANCES?  

If you keep referring to the psycology of the Imperium, you must know, as I said in earlier posts, that it is incredibly inefficient and contradictory.
Read the reasons given if you feel like it, or give me something besides opinion and conjecture.

[horizon]

Hiia haa,

This is some friendly words and discussion being thrown around.

LS,
we (I) never argued the lance on the Nova. But an escort is something vary different then a capital ship. The Nova is a small gunboat with a big fluff entry that the IN, Inq and Imperium have issues with it. It is rare. Hmmm? Perhaps Marines now the Imperiums stance and keep the number of Nova's to a minimum (reasoning: to protect the delivery from Strike Cruisers), so they won't feel the torch of the Imperium? The Marines know it is already iffy to have the Nova. So they'll certainly won't equip Strike Cruisers with it.


So....
Write a thesis on why Marines should not or should have lances. Submit them to Warp Rift. Despite the WR team being anti-lance we will publish non-edited. I promise. <grin>
Challenge for ya all?

[Sigoroth]

You are caught up in a slippery slope fallacy.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope
'If some chapters flirt with the limitation by taking a few lances, then all chapters will have all lance ships, and will build a fleet that will rival the IN'
They are certainly a long way from that, currently, with only about 12 capital ships in a chapter.
Marines can make escorts, but not capital ships, or at least there is nothing written about it.

First of all, there is no slippery slope fallacy here. There is no middle ground. This is not a reasonable society. If you suggest that the Imperium is incapable of enforcing this limitation now then it stands to reason that they will become less able to enforce it later.

Secondly, even if it were an example of the slippery slope fallacy (which it is not) it's irrelevant. This is because this is how the Imperium thinks. They don't think "Oh hey, what's a few lances? So they could only give us a severe mauling if they rebelled instead of destroying us if they only had a few lances ... Oh, and I'm sure that we won't need to police it, they'll restrict themselves to just a few, it's all good, no need to worry". We're talking about paranoia of clinical levels here. Even if there were some enforcable middle ground then they're still not going to take it, they fear far too much.

If you think that they wouldn't enforce it then you know nothing about psychology. Inefficiency and contradiction has nothing to do with psychology. That's just bureaucracies for you. The people who run those bureaucracies are still human. The fact is, if what you said were true, that the Imperium either can't do anything to stop the SM or couldn't give a fuck then there simply would be no codex restrictions. The SMs would just do whatever the fuck they wanted. Who's going to stop them? They can build warfleets and increase their command to legion status or beyond and carve out their own empire or do whatever. No one can or would stop them according to your logic.

There is rarely a 'line in the sand' in the Imperium, rather a hazy field where, depending on whose in charge of the situation, a decision is made at some point.  And a few lances does not an inquisitorial appointment make, read the fluff that has been quoted to you, and it will be clear.
Your current argument is 'Tell me one reason marines would have lances'  To which there is a reply, reasons are given, and you reply with 'Tell me one reason why marines would have lances.'

What is the difference between lance escorts and lances on a small percentage of capital ships?
DO YOU REALIZE MARINES ALREADY HAVE AND USE LANCES?  

If you keep referring to the psycology of the Imperium, you must know, as I said in earlier posts, that it is incredibly inefficient and contradictory.
Read the reasons given if you feel like it, or give me something besides opinion and conjecture.

The Nova. This is itself a strong argument against SMs getting lances. They already have access to Imperium approved lances in the form of the Nova. Therefore whatever need there might be (and I have seen none) it is already met. As for why the Imperium would allow the Nova, because it's an escort. It's not a threat. Lances on a SM capital ship is a huge threat. On an escort, not a threat. Despite which it is only granted grudgingly and there are factions that don't want the SMs to have even that. What makes you think that it'd be fine on a capital ship when it is so worrying on an escort?

When asked for reasons why SMs should get lances you can't provide any? What, don't want to repeat yourself? You make me repeat myself. So why shouldn't you?

Here, take your very best reasons and list them all in a new reply under "reasons why SM should get lances".