Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development

[BaronIveagh]

I looked up laser dispersal systems earlier and found that if the WBs fire diffusion spheres (minute prisms) into the path of the lances in addition to conventional ordinance it would (might hopefully) act as an effective shield vrs WBs and lances. The only problem would be it couldn't be a reactive system it would have to be a constant effect to diffuse the beam weapons enough to minimise fire. Hence the need for so many WBs for it to be effective. I would have msg you but I thought it would be better served by a post here instead.

Not quite: WBs also include such things as very large ordinance and plasma rounds, which would not be much disturbed by a lds.  A lance might or might not, however I'll point out that they're not disturbed by BMs, which would have a powerful dispersal effect.

[Plaxor]

There is one funny thing about debates, usually they just end up with each side more entrenched in their beliefs.

[BaronIveagh]

There is one funny thing about debates, usually they just end up with each side more entrenched in their beliefs.

Actually, that's just on the Internet.  Though I did like Sigoroth's "I'm right, and any proof I'm wrong is also wrong, no matter who says it or how much there is of it".  

Very doublethink.

I wish that grant committees were swayed by that one.


And, if there ever is a BFG 2.0, and they give SM lances, I will laugh my ass off.

[lastspartacus]

Don't worry about it.  Sig has no specific proof, nor does any of the no-lance crowd.
Its not the most firmly detailed line of fiction in the 40k saga, but there is definitely more that would allow for rare examples of lance armed capital ships than wouldn't, which is why the no-lancers choose to pick apart opposing arguments rather than present any real arguments of their own.

I refer to my previous post, no response yet to my points.

[barras1511]

The problem of a theoritical premise is just that it is what it is. I would put forth that if the rules are broken or if you disagree with them please argue on those grounds, but to argue with a therory based in fantasy is just......
I only put the fluff in as an it could work if you wanted it to. This is the way Sci-Fi works. It's all made up on the hope it could work. The conventional explosives from the WBs would disturb and displace a plasma beam or convential weapons.

If you think of an explosive shell with a sabot of micro prisms (millions diffusion spheres per shell). Open a space inside the prisms with a perfect void enviroment and add antiparticles into this enviroment. These are not burned up by the shells exploding as they have been discarded away from the shell during the shooting process. As the incoming lance burns though the prisms dispersing energy as it does so it would release the antiparticles soaking more energy from the lance. Billions and trillions of the spheres would be ejected into space using this defensive fire pattern. Fill the intervening space with explosions all around the defensive grid to disturb matter type weaponary. This is the way I could see this working system working. Horribly inefficient though. It would cost an absolute fortune!  

A good example of a convential version of this system without the antiparticles would be to look at Battlestar Galactica. A small variation from hundreds of miles away equates to a miss.

@Lastspartacus Look at the role Lances play in this game and refer to my premise behind this increased shield option for SM. SM navy is a glorified group of transports. The IN are the guns of the Imperium navies. To me SM have too much fire power as it is. They are not meant to be able fight effectively as a navy by design and Inquisitors are not happy with change. Should they be fluff bound not to have lances? Yes, no, don't care. In game balance terms they got BC to balance the lack of lances.

[Plaxor]

And, if there ever is a BFG 2.0, and they give SM lances, I will laugh my ass off.

Lol,

Fan, "but space marines don't have lances! it says in the fluff!?"

GWrep, "Well they obviously found them in their basement, and in the meantime they defeated 6 hivefleets, and told the IN to shove it."

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Except to, apparently, random rogue traders.

Random RTs is fine. If said particular RT got to the point where AM discovers his usurping their territory, AM would in all likelihood ask for help from IN in hunting him down.

Except that the BT's don't follow Guilliman's 'guidelines' is the keystone of their identity a space marines and a core part of their fluff.

So you say. What is in their fluff so far is that they do not follow the guidlines exactly but they should be following a lot of them. Otherwise, they would already be declared as traitors and hunted down. While they may be fleet based, this is only because they have no planet they call their own. The simplest explanation is still that they grudingly follow the guidelines and so have been granted AM support.

I would posit that their control is not absolute, and that as 'lesser tech heresy' (such as invention, building, and repairing things without admech approval) is rife on most hive worlds (see Creatures Anathema, pg 14) This is opposed to 'Greater Tech Heresy' such as building thinking machines, anything powered by the warp, certain brands of genetic engineering.  It's made clear in Anathema that the admech only calls for exterminatus for things like building androids (recreating the men of iron) or constructing large scale warp devices.  That last one also leads other organizations to call for exterminatus.  Largely the level of 'lesser' tech heresy that a given world allows is at the discretion of the local planetary admech temple. (same source, same page)

A startship which can traverse the warp is essentially a large scale warp device.

Your argument might have weight except that the engines in a sentinel walker can power one.  The much larger and more advanced engines in a land raider would probably have no problem driving the vehicle forward as well a powering lascannons.  And the wiring of an alternator to an engine to produce electricity isn't that complicated.  And, yes, looking at every lascannon GW has ever produced, it's a single high voltage connection hooked to a capacitor.  (what do you think those things are that the IG use in the field when they have a man portable lascannon?)

Twin linked? and there's one per side? Aside from which if I remember correctly that the reason why extra troops could be fielded into an LRC was because of the removal of the Lascannons.

I would suggest then that there are a lot of things that you don't know how to fix on your car then.  If you can replace a panel, or weld a frame,  replace your electrical system, or swap out the engine, you can probably build a car.  If you doubt it, go to any hotrod show.

No, as in build an entire car from scratch. Down to literally the nuts and bolts. Swapping and replacing stuff, sure easily done. Building something from nothing is another issue.

No, your statement was that I wouldn't know how and couldn't do such a thing even if I had the resources.  Which was incorrect.  I did not say that it was not a major undertaking.  It would probably take months or even years to finish.  But the point is that they could know what to do, and would have the manpower, equipment, and material to do it.

Yes you wouldn't know how if the information on how to build one was strictly controlled. The mindset of tech in real life is vastly different from the theoretical world of 40k where we know a lot of the knowledge was lost or severely restricted. In this real life, you can build that drone of yours because you have access to the information to build one. Doing that in 40k would be almost impossible with a lot of the restrictions in place from political to technological.

And I see idiots play with tokamaks every day, but we call them graduate students.  The thing about a plasma drive is actually it would be fairly safe.  Sure, if you have one in your basement and the mag field gives out, you're probably going to burn the house down, but they don't actually explode with the sort of hundred gigatonne explosions we have in BFG and 40k in general.

But what's important is in BFG and 40k in general is they do.

It's obvious we're already at an impasse. I believe what I believe are the parameters of the 40k-BFG universe. SM are great on the ground but suck in space battles. That doesn't mean I don't think they need help which is why I put up this thread in the first place. I don't believe they need help by getting lances, even if that is what the HA wants to introduce and that is why we are telling the HA not to do it. The BCs are already almost as good which is alright. They need help in the defensive aspect. They need survivability. That they can win through attrition.

What Sigoroth has said is the simplest answer one can get as to why they cannot and shouldn't get lances even on expensive basis. There's already a couple of ways they can do it, either by the Novas or Firestorm RSVs or the VBBs. That's more than enough already to satisfy the pro-lance crowd and the fluff without having to take those lances as standard, expensive or not, on the regular SCs and BBs.

[BaronIveagh]

Random RTs is fine. If said particular RT got to the point where AM discovers his usurping their territory, AM would in all likelihood ask for help from IN in hunting him down.

It's not exactly secret.  The administratum sends ships from all over to be scrapped there.  

So you say. What is in their fluff so far is that they do not follow the guidlines exactly but they should be following a lot of them. Otherwise, they would already be declared as traitors and hunted down. While they may be fleet based, this is only because they have no planet they call their own. The simplest explanation is still that they grudingly follow the guidelines and so have been granted AM support.

Again, the Adeptus Terra does not enforce the Codex (that would, broadly speaking, include the Inquisition).  It does not have the weight of law outside of chapters that follow it.

A startship which can traverse the warp is essentially a large scale warp device.

No, they usually aren't much outside 20km long.  Think more 'planet' or 'solar system' sized.  Anything that can't threaten more then a single planet they tend to fob off on the local admech temple or the Inquisition.  (Creatures Anathema, pg 14)

Twin linked? and there's one per side? Aside from which if I remember correctly that the reason why extra troops could be fielded into an LRC was because of the removal of the Lascannons.

Leman Russ Annihilator.  The whole shebang fits in the turret.  And, the space it occupies is probably thinner, but takes up more overall room.  

No, as in build an entire car from scratch. Down to literally the nuts and bolts. Swapping and replacing stuff, sure easily done. Building something from nothing is another issue.

Well, if you want to go all the way back to smelting the steel, sure, it'd be time consuming, but not impossible.  As far as building a car from car parts, no, that's still quite easy if you know what each part is and how it works.  Heck, it's not even really that hard to fabricate most of them.  My father thought it would be cute to build a replica jeep once in his shop.

Yes you wouldn't know how if the information on how to build one was strictly controlled. The mindset of tech in real life is vastly different from the theoretical world of 40k where we know a lot of the knowledge was lost or severely restricted. In this real life, you can build that drone of yours because you have access to the information to build one. Doing that in 40k would be almost impossible with a lot of the restrictions in place from political to technological.

If that were true, then tech heresy would be impossible.  However, since it's rampant, according to fluff, the obviously the admech is not the only source of information or they're not as reluctant to share it as you think.

But what's important is in BFG and 40k in general is they do.

It's obvious we're already at an impasse. I believe what I believe are the parameters of the 40k-BFG universe. SM are great on the ground but suck in space battles. That doesn't mean I don't think they need help which is why I put up this thread in the first place. I don't believe they need help by getting lances, even if that is what the HA wants to introduce and that is why we are telling the HA not to do it. The BCs are already almost as good which is alright. They need help in the defensive aspect. They need survivability. That they can win through attrition.

What Sigoroth has said is the simplest answer one can get as to why they cannot and shouldn't get lances even on expensive basis. There's already a couple of ways they can do it, either by the Novas or Firestorm RSVs or the VBBs. That's more than enough already to satisfy the pro-lance crowd and the fluff without having to take those lances as standard, expensive or not, on the regular SCs and BBs.

So, you're saying that 'Any proof that I am wrong is incorrect because it disagrees with my interpretation.'  

[lastspartacus]

Getting lances isn't 'Helping' the marines if its an equal tradeout for a better lance-like variant, come on now.

Like I said, stop ignoring my posts just because they are harder to counter.  BC-lance tradeout, str2 prow lance, front fire only, no points increase,
one per 1000 points.  Problem solved.

[Sigoroth]

So, you're saying that 'Any proof that I am wrong is incorrect because it disagrees with my interpretation.'

Firstly, you haven't provided any. You have provided innuendo, supposition, wishful thinking and non-canonical fluff. You wonder why we select only certain aspects of fluff and yet by your own admission acknowledge that a great deal of it is inconsistent. This last is why we (and by we I mean not just the members of this board but players as a whole) reject bad fluff. To be clear, I am not talking external consistency. Something doesn't have to line up exactly with the laws of physics, for example. However, it does have to be internally consistent. It has to line up with the established premises of the universe.

You bring up authors that clearly ignore this, breaking pre-established fluff when they create their own. Therefore their's is automatically bad. By this same token, since we have already established the Imperium have deliberately neutered SM fleet capabilities and are paranoid of SM rebellion then we already know that they're not going to give SMs anti-ship guns in their fleets. Any fluff that says otherwise is wrong and rejected out of hand (much like the death of Eldrad Ulthran).

Also, the fact that you even want SMs to have lances puts you in  the greedy fanboy category. "I want it! I want it!". There's actually no reason for the SM to have it and a whole lot of reason for them not to.

[lastspartacus]

Rubbish, Sig.  You are letting your apparent hatred of people who like marines cause you to produce embarassing posts.

Where's the proof to back up your much stronger claims?  Or maybe I am misunderstanding what Baron is arguing.  If its an all-lance SM fleet, that shouldn't be.  But I think he is arguing for limited numbers, like I am.  Check my above posts, since you seem to have not read them yet.

I don't at all understand your rage over this topic, but give us something to back up those passionate responses, because its coming across as pure opinion and tantrum-throwing.  With the ideas you have come up with, I know you are better than this.

[commander]

Well, approach the whole matter from a different angle.
In 40K, technology is degraded to faith. If a piece of machinery works, than that is the will of the Omnisiah. If something breaks down, they simply replace it, if there are spare parts, as a low level tech priest has no knowledge of how to repair the broken down part. Only high level priests are initiated in that kind of knowledge/mysteries of the faith. And to be able to construct titans and starships, well, that's very high level.
The AM are those that 'teach' the tech marines all they have to know. Now, one has to ask him/herself how much that would be.  Consider the time spend by a Tech marine with the AM and than consider how long it takes for a tech priest to climb up in the hierarchy to the point that he is initiated in the 'faith' of building titans and starships. Also consider the fact that they are very paranoid when it comes to sharing technology with OTHERS.
Can the SM construct their own starships? I think not as I've seen no fluff, NONE, that indicates that a tech marine has reached/surpassed the 'level' of a AM magos.
Can they build lances on their SC or BB? NO, not without the help of the AM. Would the AM refuse such request? Likely, as it would mean that a holy STC has to be changed in some way.
Does this exclude lances? NO, but it makes them very unlikely on SM capital ships.

...

[lastspartacus]

This goes beyond the victory of this argument, but for what its worth, marines seem to be able to construct escort ships, including the Nova.
So if they have the Nova, they can learn how to put it on cap ships too, one would reason. 

[Sigoroth]

Rubbish, Sig.  You are letting your apparent hatred of people who like marines cause you to produce embarassing posts.

There is nothing embarrassing in my posts. Every one of my posts has been based upon reason, something that you SM fanboys have yet to bring to the table.

Where's the proof to back up your much stronger claims?  Or maybe I am misunderstanding what Baron is arguing.  If its an all-lance SM fleet, that shouldn't be.  But I think he is arguing for limited numbers, like I am.  Check my above posts, since you seem to have not read them yet.

P1 - The lance is purely and totally an anti-ship weapon.
P2 - Space marines have absolutely no need for this weapon to fulfil their role.
P3 - The Imperium is paranoid about excessive SM power.
P4 - The main focus for this paranoia is space power.
P5 - The Imperium is as described in fluff, paranoid, superstitious, merciless, self-righteous.

C - The Imperium would never allow SMs to have lances on their SCs and BBs.

You cannot hold to be true the premises given above while holding the conclusion to be false. In which case you would need to take issue with one or more of the premises. P1 is unarguable. Hmm, so is P2. Aaaand the main fluff for the entire 40k universe centres around P3, P4 and P5. So they're unarguable too. There's my superior proof.

This is far far FAR superior to some whiny SM fanboy saying "weeell, if you look at it from this point of view you might think it plausible for SMs to be able to make their own ships in which case they might be able make lances and looky looky, some dickhead author who knows nothing about the classification of a lance in BFG terms says they got 'em and and and in 40k they even say lance strike look look, that's proof".

If SMs are allowed to have lances then the Horus Heresy didn't happen. Nothing that SMs do is punishable at all, and SMs are allowed to do what they want and therefore the Badab war also didn't happen, because the Imperium wouldn't even have tried to stop them, because SMs are autonomous and the Imperium don't have the power to do anything to them.

What an author calls a lance and what BFG calls a lance could be completely different things. What 40k calls a lance IS a completely different thing! Lances in 40k are Eldar and Dark Eldar weaponry! What is obviously meant by a lance strike is a precision strike. While the same may be true in BFG, these are on tremendously different scales. The tiny area affected by a 40k lance strike would be nothing compared to that of a BFG lance.

But even if it were on the same scale, they're obviously not calling for a BFG lance, which is an anti-ship weapon, they're merely asking for a precision strike. Nothing more.

Even if you fervently believed that the SMs could build and maintain their own fleet of lance boats this is utterly irrelevant. They simply wouldn't do it. Because they know that this is going too far. If they did do it they would eventually be found out. Ships tend to get noticed. Once they're found out then there would be the inevitable consequences.

I don't at all understand your rage over this topic, but give us something to back up those passionate responses, because its coming across as pure opinion and tantrum-throwing.  With the ideas you have come up with, I know you are better than this.

You accuse me of tantrum throwing!? You, who will not listen to reason and instead demands more toys for your boys? You have not provided even once a single reason why Space Marines should get an anti-ship weapon. You have wilfully ignored all reason and not provided a rebuttal. The only thing I've heard is "I think you're overstating it". Well, did the Horus Heresy happen or not? Was it the single most traumatic event in human history or not? Was it the reason the SMs had their power stripped or not? Do the ramifications of which echo down through 10000 years or not? The answer to all that is fuckin yes! Yes, yes, yes, yes! The Imperium is not a reasonable place. It's a place of extremes. It's not a tolerant place either.

Despite every single one of your arguments being dubious in their premises (as has been argued ad infinitum by others on this board) they're inconclusive as to the Space Marines actions even if true! If the SMs could do all you say there's nothing to say they would! If they did there's nothing to say the Imperium wouldn't fuck 'em up for their trouble. The reverse is true. Since they haven't built a lance boat in all this time (as shown by current profiles and Nova fluff) then that suggests that even if they could have they chose not to. The above argument that I've put forward over and over again says that if the SMs did decide to they'd get pwnd for it.

Your arguments are so damn stupid, marginal and irrelevant it reeks of fanboyism that you continue in the face of such overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Let me sum up your current circumstance. You're arguing for SM lances in the face of:

No game/fluff reason for it
Dubious reason to suspect its possible
No reason to suspect they'd do it
Reason to suspect they wouldn't
No reason to suspect it would be allowed
Reason to suspect it wouldn't

So despite absolutely everything against you, you still argue for it as if it were oh so reasonable. And you wonder why I get pissed off.

[lastspartacus]

There is nothing embarrassing in my posts. Every one of my posts has been based upon reason, something that you SM fanboys have yet to bring to the table.

Reasonable in your own mind, but I'd like to see some proof.  You can make any number of seemingly reasonable statements, but without backup, its pure and utter conjecture.  And fanboy?   Please.  I don't have a marine fleet, nor do I plan to have one soon.
I'm just arguing this side because it makes the most sense.  And a mild underdog complex that activates when I see one side falling under attack by bad arguments.  I'm a grunt-in-the-mud Guardsman guy, marines were always too aloof for me.  Stop sticking people who disagree with you in pigeon-holes.

P1 - The lance is purely and totally an anti-ship weapon.

Its a weapon, used primarily against ships, but completely capable against hard defenses and ground targets.  Can be used against other things, but not as effective as weapon batteries, which, hey, are also anti-ship weapons, or they wouldn't be used against ships.  Duh.
As has been said, by your logic, marines would be unarmed.  Lances are one of the weapons a ship uses against other ships, trading number of shots for armor penetration, the end.

P2 - Space marines have absolutely no need for this weapon to fulfil their role.

For their role, you are correct that marines don't need lances as much.  The BC works just fine against defenses, and while lances would be handy against defense ships, IN backup and superior tactics can make up for this.  Unfortunately that has point has nothing to do with the topic.
The discussion is centered on some marine chapters having some lances.  In the hostile 40k galaxy, chapters have to fend for themselves, and absolutely have to fight their own fleet battles against traitor forces, xenos, etc.  The fact is, the rare lance would absolutely be more feasible than impossible.

P3 - The Imperium is paranoid about excessive SM power.

Yes, every Imperial organization is paranoid against the other organizations, standard fluff

P4 - The main focus for this paranoia is space power.

Sure.

P5 - The Imperium is as described in fluff, paranoid, superstitious, merciless, self-righteous.

More of the same.

C - The Imperium would never allow SMs to have lances on their SCs and BBs

Wow, what a conclusion jump.  Paranoid and complete galaxy-spanning and heavily monitored ban aren't the same.  And why just SC and BB?

You cannot hold to be true the premises given above while holding the conclusion to be false. In which case you would need to take issue with one or more of the premises. P1 is unarguable. Hmm, so is P2. Aaaand the main fluff for the entire 40k universe centres around P3, P4 and P5. So they're unarguable too. There's my superior proof.

Debate class 101: Making a point, then setting the tone by saying it is inarguable, big fallacy.  Rather, make it good enough to be easy to argue, and you will get alot more traction.  Your points aren't inarguable, but are not completely false.  The jump from the points to the conclusion though is way too far of a jump.  Oh, and I'm pretty sure that the suspicion of one Imperial organization towards another is not the central axis of the 40k universe.  Its not superior proof my friend.

This is far far FAR superior to some whiny SM fanboy saying "weeell, if you look at it from this point of view you might think it plausible for SMs to be able to make their own ships in which case they might be able make lances and looky looky, some dickhead author who knows nothing about the classification of a lance in BFG terms says they got 'em and and and in 40k they even say lance strike look look, that's proof".

Man up buddy.  No one is whining and it doesn't take a fanboy to argue for a specific fleet.  Let me break it down, with actual reasoning.

The Hunter entry indicates that marine escorts are, or at least can be made by SM chapters independently, no alternate point of view needed.
The Nova is a marine escort.  Therefore we can assume that marines have some knowledge of lance technology, though they do know that it is frowned upon by other powers that be, and not a normal tool in their craft.

If SMs are allowed to have lances then the Horus Heresy didn't happen. Nothing that SMs do is punishable at all, and SMs are allowed to do what they want and therefore the Badab war also didn't happen, because the Imperium wouldn't even have tried to stop them, because SMs are autonomous and the Imperium don't have the power to do anything to them.

More perfect reasoning I guess.  'If the SM are allowed lances, it means the Horus Heresy didn't happen'.  Are you really serious?
If you know anything about 40k, you know that the Imperium is a massive and contradictory system, with different cells in the same group reacting completely differently to one situation, not to mention multiple virtually independent power groups.
Guess what Sig?  Marines ARE allowed lances!  The Nova has a lance!

What an author calls a lance and what BFG calls a lance could be completely different things. What 40k calls a lance IS a completely different thing! Lances in 40k are Eldar and Dark Eldar weaponry! What is obviously meant by a lance strike is a precision strike. While the same may be true in BFG, these are on tremendously different scales. The tiny area affected by a 40k lance strike would be nothing compared to that of a BFG lance.

Not really relevant, but the Eldar tech is called a lance because it is, advanced enough to fire with the same tech on a much smaller weapon and area of effect.  At least, thats what I always figured.

But even if it were on the same scale, they're obviously not calling for a BFG lance, which is an anti-ship weapon, they're merely asking for a precision strike. Nothing more.

Lances can target ground targets, sure.  You are confusing main purpose with ability, I think.  Its like saying Bombardment Cannons are rubbish against ships, because they were made with static defenses in mind.

Even if you fervently believed that the SMs could build and maintain their own fleet of lance boats this is utterly irrelevant. They simply wouldn't do it. Because they know that this is going too far. If they did do it they would eventually be found out. Ships tend to get noticed. Once they're found out then there would be the inevitable consequences.

Well, for one, an SM chapter, especially the mobile, type, can hide their particulars near forever, as fluff has shown.
But yes, assuming they massed lances, that is a clear sign of something fishy, and they would be held accountable. 
We are talking limited lances here, the possibility of some lances on some ships in some chapters, not lance fleets.  They could and would do that much, or some would, if they had the ability and curcumstances.  The Nova shows that the IN turns a blind eye to small numbers of lances.
What changes if it is on a capital ship rather than an escort?

Despite every single one of your arguments being dubious in their premises (as has been argued ad infinitum by others on this board) they're inconclusive as to the Space Marines actions even if true! If the SMs could do all you say there's nothing to say they would! If they did there's nothing to say the Imperium wouldn't fuck 'em up for their trouble. The reverse is true. Since they haven't built a lance boat in all this time (as shown by current profiles and Nova fluff) then that suggests that even if they could have they chose not to. The above argument that I've put forward over and over again says that if the SMs did decide to they'd get pwnd for it.

Even if you think the arguments dubious, those ones that are supported by simple fluff, at least they are arguments.  You just have conjecture.

Your arguments are so damn stupid, marginal and irrelevant it reeks of fanboyism that you continue in the face of such overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

How are they stupid, Sig?  What is so unreasonable, marginal, and irrelevant?  Not much, but yours are.  There is small worth in your post, and lots of name calling.  It reeks of anti-marine fanboyism, did you get your ass kicked by too many 40k marine armies?  How is it even another 'toy'?
Its an inferior option for goodness sakes.

Here is the pro-lance argument in a nutshell.

1.It is not impossible to think that some chapters have those willing to assist them with lance technology, especially those with strong Admech ties or looting potential.
2. While not essential to their primary role, lances could obviously be useful to SM fleets.
3. While lances are frowned upon, the existence of the Nova proves that the no-lance policy is a bendable one, though the amount of lances in the fleet would surely be met with equally rising amounts of hostility.
4. Marines seem to be able to build marine escorts.
5. The Nova is a marine escort, therefore they would have at least some knowledge on how to produce and maintain it.
6. There is zero fluff to indicate that 'whats ok on the escorts is taboo on the capital ships' nor can I think of a reason as to why this would be.
7. There is zero fluff to indicate this view that any lance on an SM capital ship would be met with extreme action.
8. The Nova entry shows with soft language that lances in marine fleets are seen as less than acts of rebellion.
C: Limited amounts of lances in certain fleets can exist, easy.

1 strike cruiser may trade the str3 l/r/f bombardment cannon for a str2 forward lance for free, per 750-1000 points.
I think Novas could use a restriction as well, sure.