Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development

[Sigoroth]

While the Arguements both have their merits. Sigoroth, you seem to overstate the importance of Space Marines in the wider Imperial Theater. You say that the single most fear of the Imperial Brass is a Space Marine revolt, although while harsh i think it is more traitors in general.

Nope, SM treachery. Any normal human can be destroyed on the ground. They can be investigated, arrested, "questioned", etc. SMs are just too powerful and physically imposing to be treated this way. They also, as a political body, have some clout. The more powerful a group is the more effort is put into controlling them. The Imperium doesn't give a rats about whether a potato farmer in some backwater rebels.

A space Marine chapter can be devastating, but thats only if its a plot thing it seems. While Imperial Guard regiments, Imperial Ships, etc could all represent a greater threat due to their increased size and power.

Guard regiments and IN ships can and do revolt too. They're just not such a threat though. They don't have such limitations on their power imposed from on high. SMs are terrifying, the IG is not. SMs are extremely hard to defeat, IG are not. SMs could sway the loyalty of billions, some IN captain could not.

The Badab war was another mass Space Marine Revolt (not on par with the Heresy, but still) which is still a footnote in all of Imperial History, which shows how insignificant it may be according to the Imperial Big Picture.

Not only that, but your classification of the Heresy as being a defining moment that changed the Imperium is true, although its relevance to the modern Imperium is, also, less than you state i believe. I would equate it the same importance to most Imperial Citizens as The fall of Lucifer does to the modern world. Its a story from a text, told to you endlessly, but still a story, not to mention those who dont believe vehemently.

Er, we're talking about a society that denies rational thought, degrades science, reveres faith and strictly punishes any deviation from dogma. It's more like the importance of the fall of Lucifer to Spanish Inquisition society!

But on the other topic, Space Marines not having lances can be a defining trait of theirs (like Orks, for example) and their Bombard Cannons are a good replacement. But if you are going to give Space Marines the options for lances, you CANNOT try to Produce fleets through overcharging for options. It is an Anathema to good game balance to try and incorporate fluff into the mechanics of the rules in such a hamfisted way. If you want to make Space Marines not take lances, you dont give them the option. A Option which is inherantly inbalanced and overcosted is an insult.

They simply should not have the option at all.

[Vaaish]

If you want to make Space Marines not take lances, you dont give them the option.

We didn't want the option there at all; this is the compromise. The lance is available since the HA wanted it but useless because of price.

EDIT:

Again, Nightbringer, Chapter 4.  The Vae Victus was built at Calth by the Ultramarines, several centuries previous to the beginning of the novel.  I've site this source twice now.

I finally had a chance to look this up and your statement is inaccurate. It was built in the shipyards of Calth but it not listed as being built by the Ultramarines. It is not indicative of the Ultramrines possessing the capabilities to create ships by themselves because it does not say if the shipbuilders of Clath are admech, part of the chapter forges, or another entity.

[BaronIveagh]

If you want to make Space Marines not take lances, you dont give them the option.

We didn't want the option there at all; this is the compromise. The lance is available since the HA wanted it but useless because of price.

EDIT:

Again, Nightbringer, Chapter 4.  The Vae Victus was built at Calth by the Ultramarines, several centuries previous to the beginning of the novel.  I've site this source twice now.

I finally had a chance to look this up and your statement is inaccurate. It was built in the shipyards of Calth but it not listed as being built by the Ultramarines. It is not indicative of the Ultramrines possessing the capabilities to create ships by themselves because it does not say if the shipbuilders of Clath are admech, part of the chapter forges, or another entity.

I would suggest that 'we' is a weakening position as more people hear about it.  

As far as Calth goes: Calth's primary industry is shipbuilding, according to the fluff section of Codex:Ultramarines, and is their fief.  The Ultramarines seem to encourage education over ignorance within their domain, as dictated by their primarch.  Further, Calth shows none of the usual hallmarks of an admech run industrial operation (in fact, if the description given on page 14 of Codex: Ultramarines is correct, the operation is the antithesis of one) as the planet lacks the sprawling toxic wasteland that usually arises from Admech operations, preventing them from possessing the sort of self sufficiency that the worlds of Ultramar pride themselves in.

If the shipyards of Calth are an admech operation, it's a highly atypical one.  Sort of like finding a squad of loyalist Luna Wolves wandering around.

@Sigoroth: Obviously you've forgotten that Gogue Vandire was a 'normal' human.  And the Age of Apostasy was much more recent then the Horus Heresy.  Further: I might point out that you are REALLY underestimating IG.  

As far as Space Marines go: 'The Adeptus Terra never felt it necessary to enforce the Codex absolutely.  Indeed, it is doubtful that it could.' - Codex: Ultramarines, page 10.

[Vaaish]

Baron, the we referring to those of us at the time this came up originally isn't changed by anything you've posted after the fact. In fact, I think you're one of maybe two here who is trying to get more lances on marine capital ships. However, on to the point. You haven't provided any proof that Calth DOES NOT have ties to the AdMech. No one denies calth is under ultramarine control, but that is a far cry from the ultramarines building the ships. Second, we don't know what a typical small scale Admech operation looks like. All we've been given is that the Admech has a monopoly on large tech like titans and starships and most of this is done from forgeworlds.

At this point all the fluff you've provided regarding Calth can tell us is there is a shipyard in the Ultramarine controlled area of space that build strike cruisers with the abnormal addition of torpedoes. That's all the facts you presented tell us.

From what we know of the AdMech (it jealously guards high tech and has a virtual monololy on building anything advanced) it makes it highly unlikely that the Calth DOES NOT have some attachment to the AdMech. This is especially true because I believe the AdMech is listed as being the sole producer of spacecraft and the like in WD140. So far, I've not seen anything to state otherwise.

[BaronIveagh]

Baron, the we referring to those of us at the time this came up originally isn't changed by anything you've posted after the fact. In fact, I think you're one of maybe two here who is trying to get more lances on marine capital ships. However, on to the point. You haven't provided any proof that Calth DOES NOT have ties to the AdMech. No one denies calth is under ultramarine control, but that is a far cry from the ultramarines building the ships. Second, we don't know what a typical small scale Admech operation looks like. All we've been given is that the Admech has a monopoly on large tech like titans and starships and most of this is done from forgeworlds.

At this point all the fluff you've provided regarding Calth can tell us is there is a shipyard in the Ultramarine controlled area of space that build strike cruisers with the abnormal addition of torpedoes. That's all the facts you presented tell us.

From what we know of the AdMech (it jealously guards high tech and has a virtual monololy on building anything advanced) it makes it highly unlikely that the Calth DOES NOT have some attachment to the AdMech. This is especially true because I believe the AdMech is listed as being the sole producer of spacecraft and the like in WD140. So far, I've not seen anything to state otherwise.

I refer you to the Breaking Yards at SR-651 in Edge of the Abyss, pg 32 and 33.  Also Aubry's Anvil, in a more peripheral way, pg 35 of the same book.  Here we have shipyards under Imperial control that have nothing to do with the admech.  I would suggest that their grasp on tech is not as total as is assumed.

On Calth: "Of all the local worlds, Calth is the most specialized...Calth is famous for it's shipyards, which provide the craft used by the Ultramarines as well as civil and military craft for wider use in the Imperium." - Codex: Ultramarines, pg 14.  This doesn't sound small scale.  

Further, Calth is one of the Ultramarines recruiting worlds.  The main point about Calth was to show that it was possible that space marines might possess technical knowledge of ship building (since Calth is a recruiting world of the Ultramarines).  After all, it seems like information that any Rogue Trader has fall into their lap on regular basis.

And I count 3-4 so far.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Again, Nightbringer, Chapter 4.  The Vae Victus was built at Calth by the Ultramarines, several centuries previous to the beginning of the novel.  I've site this source twice now.  

UM are one of the Chapters which AM would give assistance without any qualms since they are the basis for the vanilla SM in the 40k universe. Citing this source doesn't mean squat.

Site a source that says they have no technical knowledge.  I've sited several that they do.  (One would hope that in a 30 year apprenticeship the tech marines in particular would have gone beyond bolt tightening.  After all, it only takes 10 to be an engineer)

Several dubious sources and none of which says they have the technical knowledge of building a starship. Again 30 years is pointless since knowledge of building something like a starship is restricted.

A simple one would be that the AdMech would have refused to alter the Eternal Crusader from it's holy STC design.  Since this alteration did take place, it would have to have been without the assistance of the AdMech, and, as the ship is a Battlebarge, would have required extensive facilities to carry out, and highly trained shipwrights.

The simplest answer would be the BT follow the guidelines set down by Guilliman and so get assistance from the AMs. Much more simpler than your solution.

and, I might point out that you have not sited a single source other then to make vague statements about '40k background'.

I've cited sources from Armada regarding why lances would be a no-no. We all agree with me that AM control the knowledge of such things as starships and technology that goes into it which is based on GW fluff and even you will agree with that. So what more do you want? Again that is the structure of the 40k universe. Do you have anything to disprove it? That AM are the ones who control such knowledge?

Really?  Then you'd know that a series of six synchronized ammo feeds (per side) are a lot harder to pull off them a single high voltage connection and a group of capacitors.  Further, the feeds would require a precise timing mechanism to feed the ammunition into the bolters without fouling, which would be rather complicated as it fires six bolters at once. A lascannon is complicated (sort of, well, not really, assuming that it's just a very powerful laser) within the weapon itself, rather then the ancillary mechanisms to operate it.

No, synchronizing a series of ammofeeds are not harder to pull off compared to installing a power supply for the lascannons. It's not a simple matter of a single high voltage connection and a group of capacitors. Where are you going to get the source of the energy for the capacitors? It obviously needs something large and separate from the engines. Otherwise, we're talking about a really big engine. Then you're going to have to wire that source correctly inside. Compared to that synchronizing bolters is simpler.

I'm not sure why you seem to think they're two separate things.  I know, at least in my field, they're exactly the same skills.  And, as John Staph, one of the men that built the Triton missile, told me, 'You need to know how to build one to know how to fix one.'

I know how to fix my car but I sure don't know how to build one. You're statement is correct though that if you know how to build one, you know how to fix one. If you still can't see the difference after this, then again, I can't give you any better example any more.

And, btw: you'd have to know that the air intake connects in a manner that would direct the coolant into the proper location, instead of, say, flooding the boat.  Further, the only failsafe was SCRAM, which simply inserts all the control rods.  SCRAM worked perfectly, however, without any coolant in the system, SCRAM doesn't do too much to prevent a meltdown.

However, that wasn't what you said they did the first time.

Which the Russians taught the engineer. No, the book I have states that when the pressure dropped, they needed to start a second pump and it failed. This was before they wanted to insert the control rods. That failsafe failed. I was mistaken a bit in some of the details but I wasn't mistaken on the failsafe failing.

While I doubt I could build myself a Nimitz (without being arrested, plutonium requires a license) I could, however, build you a nice unmanned drone carrier with a more conventional propulsion system (I'm fond of the Babcox and Wilcox non-explosive boiler, myself.  It's not as efficient, but any idiot can be trained to operate it, and if something goes wrong, there's no issues with all that Strontium 90).  And some drones, though nothing as well armed or fast as the USG's toys.  Or any number of cute civilian ships.   Assuming you want to drop the money on me to get all the materials I need.

So you can build a drone carrier but would you want an idiot to handle the plasma drive of a starship with all its attendant issues? You miss the point though. And that is building a Nimitz or similar warship is no small thing much less that of a kilometers long warship.

[lastspartacus]

Well, if you want an example of SM building starships, the Hunter blurb demonstrates that marines build it so as not to have to rely on the Admech for Imperial escorts.

Its kind of funny, the anti-lance crowd demanding fluff and arguing against what is presented, when the burden of proof lies on them to completely deny lances to marine capital ships.  Since there is no hard proof either way, its a feels-right crusade.

Baron, you are trying too hard, the answer is very simple.  Ill reiterate my previous statement, since others chose to go after Baron's points since they were more easily argued.

"Quote that fluff source about the cap ships, Horizon.  I think its just how you feel about it, and since there's no hard fluff to back up the 'no not ever' argument, I say let the SM players have limited lances, if they want that INFERIOR option, without such stupidly wrong points costs.
Unless I misunderstand and you are arguing for some additional lance for 20 points, rather than 20 points and a str3 BC.

I read the fluff on the Nova.
'RARE in MOST chapters'.  'A trend the...would dearly love to see continue.'
Pretty soft wording for the interpretation you are getting from it."

Open and shut case.  Get rid of the points hike and make the lance variant far more limited.

[BaronIveagh]

Several dubious sources and none of which says they have the technical knowledge of building a starship. Again 30 years is pointless since knowledge of building something like a starship is restricted.

Except to, apparently, random rogue traders.

The simplest answer would be the BT follow the guidelines set down by Guilliman and so get assistance from the AMs. Much more simpler than your solution.

Except that the BT's don't follow Guilliman's 'guidelines' is the keystone of their identity a space marines and a core part of their fluff.

I've cited sources from Armada regarding why lances would be a no-no. We all agree with me that AM control the knowledge of such things as starships and technology that goes into it which is based on GW fluff and even you will agree with that. So what more do you want? Again that is the structure of the 40k universe. Do you have anything to disprove it? That AM are the ones who control such knowledge?

I would posit that their control is not absolute, and that as 'lesser tech heresy' (such as invention, building, and repairing things without admech approval) is rife on most hive worlds (see Creatures Anathema, pg 14) This is opposed to 'Greater Tech Heresy' such as building thinking machines, anything powered by the warp, certain brands of genetic engineering.  It's made clear in Anathema that the admech only calls for exterminatus for things like building androids (recreating the men of iron) or constructing large scale warp devices.  That last one also leads other organizations to call for exterminatus.  Largely the level of 'lesser' tech heresy that a given world allows is at the discretion of the local planetary admech temple. (same source, same page)

No, synchronizing a series of ammofeeds are not harder to pull off compared to installing a power supply for the lascannons. It's not a simple matter of a single high voltage connection and a group of capacitors. Where are you going to get the source of the energy for the capacitors? It obviously needs something large and separate from the engines. Otherwise, we're talking about a really big engine. Then you're going to have to wire that source correctly inside. Compared to that synchronizing bolters is simpler.

Your argument might have weight except that the engines in a sentinel walker can power one.  The much larger and more advanced engines in a land raider would probably have no problem driving the vehicle forward as well a powering lascannons.  And the wiring of an alternator to an engine to produce electricity isn't that complicated.  And, yes, looking at every lascannon GW has ever produced, it's a single high voltage connection hooked to a capacitor.  (what do you think those things are that the IG use in the field when they have a man portable lascannon?)

I know how to fix my car but I sure don't know how to build one. You're statement is correct though that if you know how to build one, you know how to fix one. If you still can't see the difference after this, then again, I can't give you any better example any more.

I would suggest then that there are a lot of things that you don't know how to fix on your car then.  If you can replace a panel, or weld a frame,  replace your electrical system, or swap out the engine, you can probably build a car.  If you doubt it, go to any hotrod show.

So you can build a drone carrier but would you want an idiot to handle the plasma drive of a starship with all its attendant issues? You miss the point though. And that is building a Nimitz or similar warship is no small thing much less that of a kilometers long warship.

No, your statement was that I wouldn't know how and couldn't do such a thing even if I had the resources.  Which was incorrect.  I did not say that it was not a major undertaking.  It would probably take months or even years to finish.  But the point is that they could know what to do, and would have the manpower, equipment, and material to do it.

And I see idiots play with tokamaks every day, but we call them graduate students.  The thing about a plasma drive is actually it would be fairly safe.  Sure, if you have one in your basement and the mag field gives out, you're probably going to burn the house down, but they don't actually explode with the sort of hundred gigatonne explosions we have in BFG and 40k in general.

[barras1511]

I know how to fix my car but I sure don't know how to build one. You're statement is correct though that if you know how to build one, you know how to fix one. If you still can't see the difference after this, then again, I can't give you any better example any more.

While I doubt I could build myself a Nimitz (without being arrested, plutonium requires a license) I could, however, build you a nice unmanned drone carrier with a more conventional propulsion system (I'm fond of the Babcox and Wilcox non-explosive boiler, myself.  It's not as efficient, but any idiot can be trained to operate it, and if something goes wrong, there's no issues with all that Strontium 90).  And some drones, though nothing as well armed or fast as the USG's toys.  Or any number of cute civilian ships.   Assuming you want to drop the money on me to get all the materials I need.

So you can build a drone carrier but would you want an idiot to handle the plasma drive of a starship with all its attendant issues? You miss the point though. And that is building a Nimitz or similar warship is no small thing much less that of a kilometers long warship.

The problem here is neither of you is taking into account what you could do with near infinite resources. With 10,000 years and the income from a planet I think you could build a Nimitz carrier, but why would you stop there. I am totally against SM getting lances. It is one of the sacrifices you make to allow your fleet to continue to be unique. Fuck the fluff. Honestly does anyone really care? To me this arguing is more about "I'm right" than it is about the game. SM dont need lances they need sheilds please stop this bickering and concentrate on the main issue. SM need help! They dont need lances! This will hide the flaws in the fleet by making SM look more balanced. The main issue with the SM fleet is it is tin foil and until this changes they will always need help.

Nervos belli, pecuniam infinitam. Cicero.

Has anyone thought about dropping WB to increase sheilds as an option for BB and SC? For example turn a BB in to a brick with 5 or 6 shields, a flight deck and a BC. You would have to change the exterminatus rules.
If you want to play SM with lances talk to your opponent and make house rules but please don't spoil the flavour of my SM by going and making your varient mainstream.

Please Sir I want some more. Oliver

[BaronIveagh]

The problem here is neither of you is taking into account what you could do with near infinite resources. With 10,000 years and the income from a planet I think you could build a Nimitz carrier, but why would you stop there. I am totally against SM getting lances. It is one of the sacrifices you make to allow your fleet to continue to be unique. Fuck the fluff. Honestly does anyone really care? To me this arguing is more about "I'm right" than it is about the game. SM dont need lances they need sheilds please stop this bickering and concentrate on the main issue. SM need help! They dont need lances! This will hide the flaws in the fleet by making SM look more balanced. The main issue with the SM fleet is it is tin foil and until this changes they will always need help.

Nervos belli, pecuniam infinitam. Cicero.

Has anyone thought about dropping WB to increase sheilds as an option for BB and SC? For example turn a BB in to a brick with 5 or 6 shields, a flight deck and a BC. You would have to change the exterminatus rules.
If you want to play SM with lances talk to your opponent and make house rules but please don't spoil the flavour of my SM by going and making your varient mainstream.

Please Sir I want some more. Oliver

Actually, I tried to bring up the available resources, but they simply ignored that.

My (original) point was since SM are getting lances anyway, why force them to suck?  It's not like you can take an entire lance fleet with the rules as written anyway.  For the crusade fleet list the exchange makes sense.  For the rest, I'd just prefer to see them limited in numbers rather then nerf the lances.

Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt. - GAIVS IVLIVS CÆSAR


I can't say that I ever thought of +6 armor as tinfoil before.  However,  I do agree that SCs need 2 points of shields (which is a purchasable upgrade now).  I don't think that BBs need them though. 


Quidquid Latine dictum sit altum videtur - anonymous

[Sigoroth]

Lance = anti-ship weapon. SMs aren't allowed Warfleets. Therefore no lances. End of story. No amount of innuendo or supposition or guess work gets around that. Hell, a bald statement saying that BTs have a gazillion battleships armed with lances wouldn't get around that.

If you're going to try to argue for SMs getting lances then it has to make sense. This means that you can stop arguing for it, since it will never make sense.

[barras1511]

In the fluff the SM navy was designed as a glorified chapter transport system and orbital strike weapon array. The IN was designed to keep the Imperial space clear of any enemies. SM should only be armed with defensive/offensive weaponry in line with this purpose. The current problem with SM is they seriously lack sheilds yet to give them more may unbalance the fluff purpose of the fleet.

So with this purpose in mind what I propose is.....

Any time 3 or more SM capital ships (BB or SC) are within 10cm of each other they MUST give up their weapon batteries to defensive fire grids (Even if they do not get any bonus). For every 25 weapon batteries given up in this way, one shield is generated for all SM capital ships in the grid up to a maximum of 2 additional sheilds. So for example 1 BB and 4 SC within 10cm of each other would give up 62 WB to gain 2 sheilds. In this example you would have a BB with 5 shields and 4 SC with 3 shields but only leave BC AC and torps as offensive firepower. This would allow the nova cannons of the IN to be incredibly effecive against SM so this not taking away from the fluff while increasing the SM ability to survive in its role as a transport vs other navies. Crippling, orders and anything else that may remove firepower from the weapon batteries also affect the defensive grid (A bad timed brace for impact for example). This idea is based on the Phalanx defense system of the US Navy.

Let the bitching begin!


A man who quotes, lacks imagination - Barras

[Vaaish]

a little complicated and bizarre don't you think?

[BaronIveagh]

Lance = anti-ship weapon. SMs aren't allowed Warfleets. Therefore no lances. End of story. No amount of innuendo or supposition or guess work gets around that. Hell, a bald statement saying that BTs have a gazillion battleships armed with lances wouldn't get around that.

If you're going to try to argue for SMs getting lances then it has to make sense. This means that you can stop arguing for it, since it will never make sense.

By that logic though Space Marine vessels should be totally unarmed, which makes even less sense.

And I did give bald statements, but as you say, they're discounted.  However, since the HA has stated that they will have lances, this bizarre insistence that they must suck, supposedly based on fluff, which has plenty of statements to the contrary, is idiotic, and, as has been pointed out, forces bad game design in order to match fluff.  

It's nice to see that getting the game growing again takes a back seat to people's preconceptions.

@Barras: it might be simpler to do it this way:

A BB or SC can sacrifice two points of WB to gain a point of turrets until it's owners next turn.  If a ship is in a squadron, this bonus is applied to the entire squadron.  This must be done at the beginning of the turn, before the movment phase.

Which would be a closer match to CIWS.

[barras1511]

No. If you want extra shielding group your ships together. If you want higher firepower don't have 3 ships within 10cm of each other. How is that complex? It doesn't allow SM to get high shields and firepower which keeps them balanced to the fluff. I don't expect this system to be mainstream but I do like putting up any original ideas on to the forum for analysis and reveiw. I think this system is a lot better than going the SM need something, fuck it lets give them lances and shut the muppets up.
I hate the idea of SM with any more lances! I will do everything I can to stop that from happening. While that might be a total of bugger all, it still looks good to try.

@sigoroth btw I looked up laser dispersal systems earlier and found that if the WBs fire diffusion spheres (minute prisms) into the path of the lances in addition to conventional ordinance it would (might hopefully) act as an effective shield vrs WBs and lances. The only problem would be it couldn't be a reactive system it would have to be a constant effect to diffuse the beam weapons enough to minimise fire. Hence the need for so many WBs for it to be effective. I would have msg you but I thought it would be better served by a post here instead.