Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development

[BaronIveagh]

There's a literally and figuratively a huge difference between equipment and kilometers long warships.

Point, however, given their self-sufficiency, it's more then likely they have their own shipyard facilities (possibly mobile).  After all, if you don't like the Inquisition, you definitely wouldn't want your ship sitting at drydock someplace where people you don't know are poking around in it's innards.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

There's a literally and figuratively a huge difference between equipment and kilometers long warships.

Point, however, given their self-sufficiency, it's more then likely they have their own shipyard facilities (possibly mobile).  After all, if you don't like the Inquisition, you definitely wouldn't want your ship sitting at drydock someplace where people you don't know are poking around in it's innards.

Ok you have shipyards.

So now who among the BT's are going to do the actual building of the ships? Who among the BT's actually knows the principle of how Plasma Drives work? How about how it is constructed? How about the Gellar equipment? The Warp drives? How about the weapons connecting to the engines? Cooling systems? Electrical systems? Communication systems? Shields? Fuel systems? Life support? Sanitation? And I am pretty sure many, many more systems integral to a ship operating at full efficiency.

Then of course, there's also the question of procurement of the hardware. So now you're telling me they also have the tech base to build the components since it's going to be obvious the High Council will not allow them to have access to the components if they decide to disobey the High Council's orders.

Unless of course you believe that BT's can do and get all these things through prayers and bolter fire.

[BaronIveagh]

Ok you have shipyards.

So now who among the BT's are going to do the actual building of the ships? Who among the BT's actually knows the principle of how Plasma Drives work? How about how it is constructed? How about the Gellar equipment? The Warp drives? How about the weapons connecting to the engines? Cooling systems? Electrical systems? Communication systems? Shields? Fuel systems? Life support? Sanitation? And I am pretty sure many, many more systems integral to a ship operating at full efficiency.

Then of course, there's also the question of procurement of the hardware. So now you're telling me they also have the tech base to build the components since it's going to be obvious the High Council will not allow them to have access to the components if they decide to disobey the High Council's orders.

Unless of course you believe that BT's can do and get all these things through prayers and bolter fire.

Well, I'll start by pointing out that in fluff they have huge factory ships as part of their fleet. Since they do have chapter serfs, they would probably form the bulk of the Sm ship crews, and probably the bulk of the chapter forges manpower led by the tech marines. 

Since the chain of supply of any fleet based chapter is poorly explained, I'll go out on a limb and suggest that larger crusades bring with them an extensive logistics arm in the form of specialized ships carrying asteroid mining rigs, provender ships (such as the Bountiful Beast [Radicals Handbook, pg 30]), huge factory ships, and so forth. 

Smaller fleets would probably have to make do with using facilities on liberated worlds.  I have a hard time picturing the recently saved govenor saying 'No, despite the fact you just saved my world from Chaos, you can't use dock number 3 at the orbital station'.

I'm guessing from your description that you assume that SM chapter serfs are as ignorant as the rest of the population of the Imperium, by and large.  Due to the nature of the uses that SM chapters put them to, this would be an impossibility in any SM chapter, for the simple reason that there would never be enough tech marines to go around.  A DCT on a strike cruiser would have to know how life support works, for example.  Actually, depending on what part of the ship they're stationed in, a DCT would probably have to know a good deal about any one of those systems you mentioned.  Chapter serfs in the engineerium would have to know how a plasma drive works, since they might have to work on any number of components of it. 

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

You don't get it do you? I'm not talking about general education. We're talking about specific technical knowledge and expertise. You still haven't answered who is going to build all those ships and components building the ship without AM assistance. Techmarine knowledge can only go so far, probably up to the point of Thunderhawks. Anything else and I doubt they would have the knowledge. Again we are talking about a ship which is a very sophisticated and complex construction.

Sure they may have mobile factories but if you don't have the correct people manning those factories, read: Adeptus Mechanicus, those factories would be nothing. The AM can withhold that expertise upon request of the High Council which can happen if BT decide they could just do without the High Council.

[lastspartacus]

Techmarines, after 30 years of intense training, better darn well know more about things than just thunderhawks, since they are expected to have complete knowledge of how to repair and manufacture stuff for the chapter.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

No because technical knowledge in 40k has been seriously compromised. Techmarines would know general repair and maintenance. Maybe they can assist in repairing ships. But as to the real nuts and bolts of how a starship is constructed and the interoperability of the systems comprising it, that is knowledge strictly and jealously guarded and controlled by the AM. Techmarines are akin to combat engineers in the modern day army. You don't expect them to build a transport, much less a battleship do you?

[BaronIveagh]

No because technical knowledge in 40k has been seriously compromised. Techmarines would know general repair and maintenance. Maybe they can assist in repairing ships. But as to the real nuts and bolts of how a starship is constructed and the interoperability of the systems comprising it, that is knowledge strictly and jealously guarded and controlled by the AM. Techmarines are akin to combat engineers in the modern day army. You don't expect them to build a transport, much less a battleship do you?

Um, actually BT fluff suggests they do exactly that, particularly since they, without the mechanicus help, not only interpreted a STC diagram they found, but were able to turn it into a new land raider variant within weeks. 

Further: you think that Damage control teams on a starship as sophisticated as a SC or a BB would not require specific technical knowledge and expertise?  Particularly if they need to get whatever was hit working again, right away?  These aren't 20th Century sea going ships, where you can just put out the fires and weld the hole in the bulkhead and all is well. 

[RCgothic]

There's a bit of a difference between a forgeworld produced 10m land raider being modified in a vehicle workshop and constructing a 5km starship from scratch. Even if they had the technical knowledge, they'd have neither the manpower, resources or facilities required.

[barras1511]

The people who do not want lance swayed the HA to the following:

* 2nd shield option for Strike Cruisers
* Prow options to replace t-hawks (BC/torps = good)
* Seditio is strong and in-line now.

We (I speak for most anti-lancers I think) also want:
* 4th turret on Barge  (free)
* 4th shield on Barge (+ few pts to me).
* strike cruiser assault variant

That is very far from anti-Marine.


Getting back to the main topic. This is exactly what the SM fleet needs. The SM do not need the lances. In game terms thats what the BC is for. The BC could be increased but I don't believe that lack of fire power is the SM flaw. The flaw is their lack of survivability. The SM need more shields. Fix this and you fix all the problems with the SM fleet. I would be tempted to give the Battle Barge 5 shields and 3 turrets (with the BB points increased) but I think 4 sheilds (at current points) would be enough to fix most of the current problems with the fleet. The SCs having 2 shield is an absolute must for the fleet. The Seditio is a regrettable and forgettable ship that should never have been made! Leave lances off of SM. We don't need them but we do need changes!

[Mazila]

You forgot:

- Crippled venerable barge 50%, destroyed 150%
- Terminator Boarding Party 15pts gives +1 boarding (+3 in total) can be put on any capital ship
- Honor Guard 20pts can be put only on Master of the Fleet ship - give additional teleport attack which rolls 2d6 on crit table, just like DE impailer

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Um, actually BT fluff suggests they do exactly that, particularly since they, without the mechanicus help, not only interpreted a STC diagram they found, but were able to turn it into a new land raider variant within weeks. 

BT fluff from who? I haven't seen any official BT fluff esp with BFG. Again, Land Raiders are in existence already. THey just went and looked at the difference. What kind of Land Raider was that again? What was the difference? From there you'll already know it's much easier to design said Land Raider compared to the original Land Raider which uses Lascannons.

Further: you think that Damage control teams on a starship as sophisticated as a SC or a BB would not require specific technical knowledge and expertise?  Particularly if they need to get whatever was hit working again, right away?  These aren't 20th Century sea going ships, where you can just put out the fires and weld the hole in the bulkhead and all is well. 

Again, repairing something is different from building something. They may not be 20th century sea going ships and they can do some battlefield repairs. However, do you think a Nimitz class carrier with a hit to its nuclear plant can easily be fixed by just welding a hole in it and all is well? I think this is the problem. You think it's simple enough to fix and fixing automatically equates to a capability to build. Sorry but they are two different bananas. Quick and dirty remedies can be made but remedies generally are done to help the ship make port. Once in port, you need the professional gremlins to do the real work. Otherwise you actually think the Techmarines can easily repair a damaged plasma drive to make it function 100%?

[Sigoroth]

Not to mention that if the BT could do all this and then did do all this then they would be declared exterminatus, hunted down and destroyed on sight. This concept of total autonomy from any authority as well as the capability to challenge the IN is the exact thing that the Imperium cannot afford to tolerate.

When talking about SMs a lot is made of their headstrong ways, giving the Inquisition the finger and whatnot. Sure, an Inquisitor can't order a SM to get him a cup of tea, or give him a massage, but this is because SMs not giving out massages is not a threat to the Empire. SMs having some form of autonomy to run their fiefs pretty much as they please is also not a threat to the Empire, generally speaking. Sometimes there is suspect goings on and the Inquisition is there, sticking their noses in. If they think they've got some solid evidence of rebellion or corruption they can then act upon it. Otherwise they tread lightly. This is the tightrope the SMs walk with the Imperium; gaining autonomy without becoming a threat.

The BT are already under scrutiny for their excess numbers. Should the Inquisition or other authorities ever get confirmed evidence then they'd be in deep doodoo. Censure and immediate segmentation into smaller chapters would be the minimum they'd face.

However, all this is close to the line stuff. Having a battlefleet is far far faaaaaaaaaaaar beyond the pale. It is so intolerable that it would result in an immediate call to action, with the mobilisation of as many fleets as possible to hunt them down and take them in, if possible, destroy them if not. The very worst and most cataclysmic incident in all the long millennia of Imperial history is the Space Marine rebellion. This is what they're paranoid about reoccuring some 10,000 years later. It is indelibly printed upon their psyche. Suggesting in an off hand way that some SM chapters operate differently to typical codex types and so could have lances and battlefleets, etc is retarduless. Any fluff that supports this notion is just garbage. Not worth considering. This is just the way it has to be for the 40k universe to have any internal consistency.

[BaronIveagh]

There's a bit of a difference between a forgeworld produced 10m land raider being modified in a vehicle workshop and constructing a 5km starship from scratch. Even if they had the technical knowledge, they'd have neither the manpower, resources or facilities required.

Stone aged tribesmen managed to mine enough metal to build the Lord Daros in 11 years.  One would imagine that a SM chapter could build a smaller ship faster.  And, again, fluff states that SM do have the facilities to make their own ships.  This is not a 'Well maybe...' issue, fluff is clear on this subject (for once). Both Dark Angels (another fleet based chapter) and Ultramarines are stated, not in a suggestive sort of maybe manner, but clearly(!) to have their own production facilities manned by chapter serfs.

As far as how such a facility might work in a chapter fleet, I'll use the provinder ship Bountiful Beast as an example.  The Beast is 16 km long, having a volume 111 times that of a strike cruiser, and is of a hull class frequently used in Imperial Crusades as a mass conveyance of victuals, according to fluff (yes, this makes it twice the length of an Emperor class battleship, but those are it's canon stats).  One would not have a hard time imagining a hull this size made into a mobile dockyard for cruisers and escorts.

And again, we're looking at just replacing ships lost to attrition, not building a fleet from scratch.

@D'Art

BT fluff from Games Workshop.  You know, the font of all official fluff?  Pick up a copy of something called Codex: Black Templars.  Very interesting stuff in the fluff section at the beginning of the book.

Oh, and there was a BT fleet list once upon a time from Ray.  Not official, but interesting enough.

The Land Raider Crusader was not just a weapon refit of the existing landraider, as it also has expanded troop carrying ability, which implies extensive internal reconfigurations.  

As far as that reactor goes, it depends on where the hole is if all it needs is some fast welding.  However, most things beyond that, as I stated before, will need some knowledge of how it actually works to fix it, even with a quick and dirty repair, particularly nukes (See K-19).  Hell, anything electronic, or even some just electrical things, you WILL need to know how it works to fix it, even a quick and dirty repair.

@Sig: And yet, they do!

Again, this is EXACTLY what it states in fluff:

"Although utterly loyal to the Emperor, the Black Templars are at the extreme end of Independence from Imperial authorities, verging on a rogue element.  Their fleet based nature and the goals of their 10,000 year crusade take the Black Templars throughout the galaxy, and it is primarily the will of their Marshals that send them to war.  Like all Space Marines, they do not consider themselves subject to Imperial rule, and each Crusade is effectively an autonomous fighting force, though they may choose to respond to requests for aid made by others in their vicinity (as happened during the Armageddon Crusade)." - Codex: Black Templars, pg 9.

And, I might point out, the problem you are having is right there: 40k HAS no internal consistency since GW changes fluff every new edition of 40k that comes out.  Black Templars approach the old legions in size, by some estimates, and would require ships and equipment comparable to that to get around.  

And, bluntly, you have not offered up any fluff proof at all of your position other then the oddly worded entry in Armada and your interpretation of another.  I've produced excerpts from a dozen sources so far, all published by GW that support my position.

[Vaaish]

Stone aged tribesmen managed to mine enough metal to build the Lord Daros in 11 years.

and mining metals is a far cry from doing anything related to the fabrication of components or construction of the vessel.

Second, you've not provided any evidence that marines HAVE lances. You've talked about pre-heresy which no one disputes and you've provided circumstantial quotes that prove nothing. At most you've shown that chapters should have access to older model IN and Chaos vessels (which is possible with VBB) and that the ocasional marine capital ship might have a lance (also possible). You've shown nothing that shows marines gallivant around the galaxy merrily tacking lances on their ships. 

The weight of evidence would point that what you are positing as widespread is actually exceedingly rare and would face serious repercussions.

[BaronIveagh]

Stone aged tribesmen managed to mine enough metal to build the Lord Daros in 11 years.

and mining metals is a far cry from doing anything related to the fabrication of components or construction of the vessel.

Considering when they finished it sailed away, I'd state that both were probably going on.