Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development

[BaronIveagh]

That isn't correct because marines don't lack anti-ship weapons; they lack dedicated anti-ship weapons unless you deny that lances are dedicated anti-ship weapons. Secondly, Fleet based chapters are usually centered around special vessels or immense starstations like the Rock which could very well mount lances as part of their defensive armaments. We aren't talking about defensive installations, we are talking about marine fleets set up for offensive fleet actions against other ships which is outside of their primary function regardless of their base of operations. Third, crusades, outside of penance crusades, are generally larger affairs involving all branches of the Imperium's military so I would think it quite common for the IN to support such actions. Although not exactly a crusade, we have the Armageddon list and the wars fought in the sector as a template for such interactions.

Perhaps somewhere there are a few marine capital ships that have lances. That's what the options currently represents. It's price implying that it is exceeding rare and difficult to acquire.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but they, by default, have boarding torpedoes, which are a dedicated anti-ship weapon.  They have absolutely no use in a planetary landing.  So, to suggest that they have absolutely no dedicated anti-ship weapons is already false.  And, bluntly, since crusades of penance can last.... well, the Black Templars, the largest and best known such chapter, have been on one for ten thousand years now...  it would not be out of the question for them to acquire such weaponry as a precaution.  Or the chapters known for their anti-ship operations, such as the Minotaurs?  

Remember that SM are not just landings, a SM SC may also be the first on the scene to any number of events, particularly in regions bordering the Eye of Terror, and most likely will arm themselves and their ships accordingly.  For example, strike cruisers are commonly used to track space hulks in fluff.  Would you say that they would have trouble justifying a lance to the inquisition for such a task?

[Vaaish]

Boarding torpedoes are under the purview of transporting marines to a target. The torpedoes won't typically kill capital ships, only deliver marines to them to take out critical systems to aid the strike cruiser similar to how thunderhawks are used from time to time to board enemy ships. So, while they are dedicated space weaponry, they aren't in the same category as lances. I also think that it is worth noting that only two marine vessels have the capability to launch torpedoes in the armada list, the battlebarge and the Hunter/cobra.

I disagree. Most would not rearm their ships. Most would be incapable of doing such. No Marine chapter outside of perhaps the ultramarines have any form of shipbuilding capabilities. That means they have to get their vessels from the AdMech who likely would not violate whatever treaties and oaths they have with the IN to refit marine vessels for ship to ship combat. Even swapping out the BC would be a very delicate affair since lances are a totally different type of weapons system and would require more than a simple swap of turrets. Even on the lengthy crusades the BT engage in, has no supporting evidence that they have any such weapons refitted to their ships. It's much more likely they have captured several lanceboats that should be taken as VBB than it is for them to have refit their ships with lances. And yes, they probably would have difficulty explaining it to the Inquisition.

All that aside, read the entry for the Nova. It's stated that this craft is the one that IN takes the most exception to. The only thing that differentiates it from the Gladius, which is listed as the most numerous escort, is that it has one lance. From that we can infer than the IN takes exception to Marine craft mounting lances even at the escort level. Why would they let them use lances on capital ships beyond the rare relic if they have a problem with it on an escort?

EDIT: added info.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

I've read it about seven times, but didn't catch the part about BBs.  And, you might note, I only joined any of those (other then dakka, and have you ever tried to get useful information out of people on dakka?) at that time, since that's when saw the thing on Warp Rift on warseer and Horizon pointed out to me that my information was outdated.  

Seven times and you never read that part? I find that unlikely.

I'm amazed how you take the internet for granted.  

It's not taking the internet for granted. It's surprise that 7 times you've read the document and you missing that particular point. particularly since it's the 4th entry in the Imperial, Chaos and SM part of the document. When I get into a game, I'd ask if there were any other rules other than the rulebook which I needed to get and where to get the latest ones. That's common sense and not taking the internet for granted.

And, regardless of my misinformation about CTNH and BBs, I still don't agree to the lance issue.  That's not how I interpret the fluff I'm reading here, and I honestly see nothing wrong with lances for SM.  I think that the str 2 lance swap for a BC was a good, balanced, idea, and would have presented a useful addition to the SM arsenal in certain circumstances.

Well how do you interpret the fluff on lances available on Escorts and rarely at that? If it is available only rarely and on Escorts, the chances on SM cap ships would be virtually nil. You already posted that you think the BC is better than a lance (in your opinion) so why would you still want lances on the SM cap ships? They provide no other function other than ship killing. It's not a matter of a useful addition. It's a matter of application.

I hate to say it, but I (cringe) agree with LS and don't see the five or six people I see post here as the 'voice of the players' any more then I think I'm the rightful rep.  

The five or six people you see posting here are the ones adhering to the fluff however. Are you?

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but they, by default, have boarding torpedoes, which are a dedicated anti-ship weapon.  They have absolutely no use in a planetary landing.  So, to suggest that they have absolutely no dedicated anti-ship weapons is already false.  And, bluntly, since crusades of penance can last.... well, the Black Templars, the largest and best known such chapter, have been on one for ten thousand years now...  it would not be out of the question for them to acquire such weaponry as a precaution.  Or the chapters known for their anti-ship operations, such as the Minotaurs?  

And which SM cap ships currently have torpedoes?

And let me clarify something. Just because a Chapter is fleet based does not mean that the Chapter is an anti-ship based fleet. It is fleet based because they do not have a planet they can call home. So they operate mainly out of mobile fortresses. It does not interfere with their mandate of Planetary Assault or Exterminatus. And just because they are on a 10,000 year Crusade does not mean they are going left and right destroying fleets of enemy ships.

Remember that SM are not just landings, a SM SC may also be the first on the scene to any number of events, particularly in regions bordering the Eye of Terror, and most likely will arm themselves and their ships accordingly.  For example, strike cruisers are commonly used to track space hulks in fluff.  Would you say that they would have trouble justifying a lance to the inquisition for such a task?

SM ARE about landings. That's the fluff for you. If they are the first at a scene and they find they can't handle the situation, well it's time to call for reinforcements. Same with tracking Space Hulks. So track. If they're dumb enough to attack something they don't know and that huge, then that's their problem.

[lastspartacus]

I hate to say it, but I (cringe) agree with LS

What?  Where does the vitriol come from?  I don't even own a marine fleet yet, nor intend to use lance variants.  I was just arguing the fluff and principle of it for those like you who want the option to use it, but I'm bowing out now.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

And we've argued fluff back. We haven't provided proof which are not outside the books. SM Fleet is a transport fleet mainly for planetary assault or exterminatus. That's in Armada. Lances are rare. They're so rare that they the term is used in the Nova entry. That is also in Armada.

You, Baron Iveagh and the other pro-lances-for-SM have not provided one fluff proof much less game balance reason why they should have lances.

[BaronIveagh]

And we've argued fluff back. We haven't provided proof which are not outside the books. SM Fleet is a transport fleet mainly for planetary assault or exterminatus. That's in Armada. Lances are rare. They're so rare that they the term is used in the Nova entry. That is also in Armada.

You, Baron Iveagh and the other pro-lances-for-SM have not provided one fluff proof much less game balance reason why they should have lances.

Hmm.. as far as a direct statement that 'And then the space marines fired their lance batteries from their strike cruisers', no, there isn't any.  

There are vague statements involving Space marines ships and lance fire, IN might be present, and simply never mentioned by anyone in the entire book, ever.  Several times lances are mentioned when the Dark Angels fleet destroys Caliban, and a few times in asides about space marines directing lance fire from their ship in orbit, but this is never made clear what ship it is.  Love those BL authors and vague statements.

The Black Templars it is flat out stated in their codex do not conform to the Codex Astartes.  Further, since they took Dorn's original fleet when they parted, they DO have lance cruisers (see any of the Horus Heresy books with Dorn's fleet in it).  Which meshes nicely with Ray Bell's BT list from Fanatic.  Oh well.

The Blood Ravens strike cruiser Armageddon appears to be a lance variant of some type, but since at no point does anyone grab a hold of it and scream 'THIS IS A LANCE' (they just sort of seem to take it for granted that it fires a beam of energy) I guess it won't count...

  
For a real fluff mind twist with SC:
 
Nightbringer, Chapter IV, page 1:

Vae Victus is described as having both torpedo tubes AND prow launch bays (plural).  This is confirmed several times in the Ultramarines series.  


And, as far as space marines being about landings: Except for when they're about boarding enemy ships.  (Which is sort of implicit in the name 'marine' and the subject of not only and entire separate game but also a whole book from GW describing how to combine 40k and BFG!  I wonder if it was official of not???)



As for as balance goes: prove to me that giving SM this option UPSETS balance.

[Vaaish]

Destruction of Calaban was immediately post heresy so it's quite possible the DA still had IN forces under their control since I don't believe there was any distinction between the IN and chapter fleets. That's not to say they still have those or than any dedicated marine ships have lances. Given the fluff in Armada, it would seem unlikely.

Just because a chapter doesn't conform to codex doesn't mean they have access to lances. Marine chapters just don't have the technical capabilities to construct the ships and there is no telling what's happened over the last 10k years or how thinly that original fleet has been spread. For all we know a ship here or there shows up as a VBB.

In either case you are referring to events close the heresy which doesn't provide insight into modern SC or Marine fleet. It wasn't until after the heresy that either the BB or the SC were put into service. Before then marines just used IN vessels that were under their command. If you want to represent that kind of fleet perhaps using the Chaos list would work better.

Landings/ boardings same type thing

It doesn't matter if it upsets balance or not, marines don't need the lances and don't have to have them. Not giving them a lot of lances gives them a different flavor to play not to mention the propensity to take lances that seems to affect a good number of players. Not having the option opens them up to a different play style.

[Sigoroth]

@BI

All SM weaponry not dedicated to the landing of their troops are dedicated to the removal or boarding of enemy defence installations. Even with WB and BC fire interfering with each other, the two systems are better against defences than equivalent weight of WB/Lance or BC/Lance combinations. So, even with interference, it is the most efficient anti-defence combination. Also, torpedoes are more effective against defences than ships, simply because they can be launched from extreme range without the possibility of the defence moving out of the path of fire. So current SM armament is fine for their role, so long as WB/BC interference remains.

[lastspartacus]

Ok.  We all know that marines having limited access to lances in no way changes their competitive nature or playstyle if the switch is for bombardment cannon hardpoints.  So it comes down to a pure fluff argument.

We all know the primary role of marines, exactly why their fleet is armed and armored as they are, and why you can go through multiple chapter fleets before you see a lance example.

But it also takes no imagination for anyone who knows how the Imperium and Space Marines work to assume there are exceptions.
It takes more imagination to assume that there are not fleets, especially crusading fleets and chapters in the far flung galaxy rim worlds, that would never have lances.  The nova proves that marines can mount ship killing weapons on escorts, which is actually more significant than if they were on their capital ships.

The SM can't always rely on the IN in dangerous spacelanes, they have to fend for themselves as a fleet.  Now usually they do this in their own heroic boarding way, as true marines.  But of course you will find the odd strike cruiser with a couple of lances to protect its sister ships, since in the fluff only lances are seen as ship killers.

And its not like lances CAN'T be used for bombardment, has no-one ever seen...well, there used to be a really cool pic of an orbital lance strike.
Can't find it atm

[horizon]

Yes, LS, good point : Imperium and Marines work together. Hence, the smarter Marine Master will call in for the Imperial Navy if the enemy fleet poses a large threat to the assault. Hence Armageddon or even more on a larger scale the Ultramar region where IN/Ultramarines/Successors work closely together.

Yes, lances can a pinpoint attack in Epic:Armageddon but that is one warmachine as a target, not a complete city like batteries or bombardment cannons do.

And as you describe an odd Strike Cruiser (before it is found by the Imperium/Inquisition) could be around, but the +20pts for 1 lance describes just how odd, rare and non-use to Marines they really are.

[Sigoroth]

But it also takes no imagination for anyone who knows how the Imperium and Space Marines work to assume there are exceptions.
It takes more imagination to assume that there are not fleets, especially crusading fleets and chapters in the far flung galaxy rim worlds, that would never have lances.  The nova proves that marines can mount ship killing weapons on escorts, which is actually more significant than if they were on their capital ships.

The SM can't always rely on the IN in dangerous spacelanes, they have to fend for themselves as a fleet.  Now usually they do this in their own heroic boarding way, as true marines.  But of course you will find the odd strike cruiser with a couple of lances to protect its sister ships, since in the fluff only lances are seen as ship killers.

And its not like lances CAN'T be used for bombardment, has no-one ever seen...well, there used to be a really cool pic of an orbital lance strike.
Can't find it atm

No, this I have to disagree with absolutely. The Horus heresy was possible due to the SM legions having their own warfleets. After this it was decreed that SM chapters would not have such fleets any more. This isn't merely some codex guidelines that can be ignored to some degree or other. Space power was taken out of the hands of the space marines and put solely into the hands of the Imperial Navy. Space marines may reign supreme on the ground, but in space it is the navy that holds sway. The heresy is the single most devastatingly traumatic event in Imperial history. Nothing else comes close. Do you think that the Highlords of Terra would even countenance the possibility of allowing space marines such fleet weapons on their ships? [Note: lances are purely fleet weapons. They ignore target aspect and armour and intervening blast markers, allowing for good damage despite ill manoeuvring or target obfuscation.]

The psychology of power states that those that have it are paranoid about losing it. When you throw in the sheer intimidation factor of Space Marines and the idea of just how unstoppable they would be if they controlled the space lanes too this paranoia would be ramped up considerably. Add to this that rebel Space Marines were the ones responsible for the greatest blow to the Imperium in all history, including the death/undeath of their god-emperor and the idea simply would not be countenanced.

The Imperial Navy rules the space lanes of the Imperium, and any post-heresy Space Marine ship found with lances would be hunted down and destroyed mercilessly, with possible further ramifications for the Chapter as a whole. No chapter would be exempt from this, not even the most powerful chapters, such as Ultramarines and Black Templars. In fact, the more powerful the chapter the more assiduously they would be monitored.

This is the psychology of power. This is the psychology of the Imperium.

[BaronIveagh]

But it also takes no imagination for anyone who knows how the Imperium and Space Marines work to assume there are exceptions.
It takes more imagination to assume that there are not fleets, especially crusading fleets and chapters in the far flung galaxy rim worlds, that would never have lances.  The nova proves that marines can mount ship killing weapons on escorts, which is actually more significant than if they were on their capital ships.

The SM can't always rely on the IN in dangerous spacelanes, they have to fend for themselves as a fleet.  Now usually they do this in their own heroic boarding way, as true marines.  But of course you will find the odd strike cruiser with a couple of lances to protect its sister ships, since in the fluff only lances are seen as ship killers.

And its not like lances CAN'T be used for bombardment, has no-one ever seen...well, there used to be a really cool pic of an orbital lance strike.
Can't find it atm

No, this I have to disagree with absolutely. The Horus heresy was possible due to the SM legions having their own warfleets. After this it was decreed that SM chapters would not have such fleets any more. This isn't merely some codex guidelines that can be ignored to some degree or other. Space power was taken out of the hands of the space marines and put solely into the hands of the Imperial Navy. Space marines may reign supreme on the ground, but in space it is the navy that holds sway. The heresy is the single most devastatingly traumatic event in Imperial history. Nothing else comes close. Do you think that the Highlords of Terra would even countenance the possibility of allowing space marines such fleet weapons on their ships? [Note: lances are purely fleet weapons. They ignore target aspect and armour and intervening blast markers, allowing for good damage despite ill manoeuvring or target obfuscation.]

The psychology of power states that those that have it are paranoid about losing it. When you throw in the sheer intimidation factor of Space Marines and the idea of just how unstoppable they would be if they controlled the space lanes too this paranoia would be ramped up considerably. Add to this that rebel Space Marines were the ones responsible for the greatest blow to the Imperium in all history, including the death/undeath of their god-emperor and the idea simply would not be countenanced.

The Imperial Navy rules the space lanes of the Imperium, and any post-heresy Space Marine ship found with lances would be hunted down and destroyed mercilessly, with possible further ramifications for the Chapter as a whole. No chapter would be exempt from this, not even the most powerful chapters, such as Ultramarines and Black Templars. In fact, the more powerful the chapter the more assiduously they would be monitored.

This is the psychology of power. This is the psychology of the Imperium.

Sigoroth, I think you're way off here.  First, um, the Nova wouldn't exist at all then, if what you say is true.  It would have been blown up, along with all the chapters that don't follow the codex astartes, which means that Space Wolves and BTs would have long ago been exterminated, along with the Dark Angels.  Since, this didn't happen, one must assume that the prohibition was not absolute.  Bluntly, though, I suspect that particular weapons were probably never even mentioned.  IN, if you stop and think about it, would be concerend about any armed space marine escort, as they are universally too small to support landings.  It just mentions it in the Nova entry, and implies it again in the Hunter entry, as the Hunter is clearly meant to be an equivalent of the IN cobra, just as Nova is a firestorm and Gladius is a sword.  (It's vaguely implied that Eisenstein is a Gladius when Gerro compares it to the 'new' Sword class)


And if you never caught the rather tongue in cheek naming scheme before now, well...


Vaaish: As far as space marines building their own ships: It's flat out stated, and not just in the silliness about SO, that Ultramarines, at least, build their own ships at Calth (again, Nightbringer, Chapter 4, et al) Not at the segmentum fortress.  The Salamanders are stated to build their own ships as well, as are the Dark Angels.  It would not surprise me if BTs did on an as-needed basis, since they consider the Ad-mech to be heretics and have their own forge ships to make their own equipment. 

As far as the more powerful then IN subject goes, I might point out an interesting thing: if the fluff dates are right, it's not the current IN fleet they'ed have compared it to, it's the IN fleet at the time.  Which would be the Chaos fleet.  Remember that the current IN fleet only really came into existence around M37.  A single 30 cm str 2 lance on a turret and a bunch WB would have been considered weak, slow, and close range in a fleet where chaos cruisers are the norm. 

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Hmm.. as far as a direct statement that 'And then the space marines fired their lance batteries from their strike cruisers', no, there isn't any.

Yep so why do you continue to insist?  

There are vague statements involving Space marines ships and lance fire, IN might be present, and simply never mentioned by anyone in the entire book, ever.  Several times lances are mentioned when the Dark Angels fleet destroys Caliban, and a few times in asides about space marines directing lance fire from their ship in orbit, but this is never made clear what ship it is.  Love those BL authors and vague statements.

And when did the DA destroy Caliban?

The Black Templars it is flat out stated in their codex do not conform to the Codex Astartes.  Further, since they took Dorn's original fleet when they parted, they DO have lance cruisers (see any of the Horus Heresy books with Dorn's fleet in it).  Which meshes nicely with Ray Bell's BT list from Fanatic.  Oh well.

You're assuming they still have the lance cruisers after the decision to remove the ships from SM was decided on. That was waaaay back then around the time just after the heresy. Do you really think that with things still fresh in the minds of everyone that they would allow BT to retain their fleet of lance ships?

The Blood Ravens strike cruiser Armageddon appears to be a lance variant of some type, but since at no point does anyone grab a hold of it and scream 'THIS IS A LANCE' (they just sort of seem to take it for granted that it fires a beam of energy) I guess it won't count...

Yep and again, I'd really take books with a grain of salt when it comes time to use them as reference.
  

For a real fluff mind twist with SC:
 
Nightbringer, Chapter IV, page 1:

Vae Victus is described as having both torpedo tubes AND prow launch bays (plural).  This is confirmed several times in the Ultramarines series.  

Books again.

As for as balance goes: prove to me that giving SM this option UPSETS balance.

Ships with 6+ armor and lances will not upset the balance? Really now. And again, it's not up to us to show you it will upset the balance. The onus is on you to prove it won't upset the balance. We've given you enough proof that SM should not have access to lances easily. Those are in Armada. The only book you should be checking for reference other than the PDFs that were made official.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

As far as the more powerful then IN subject goes, I might point out an interesting thing: if the fluff dates are right, it's not the current IN fleet they'ed have compared it to, it's the IN fleet at the time.  Which would be the Chaos fleet.  Remember that the current IN fleet only really came into existence around M37.  A single 30 cm str 2 lance on a turret and a bunch WB would have been considered weak, slow, and close range in a fleet where chaos cruisers are the norm. 

It's not a matter of weak. It's a matter of availability. Why give SM weak ships with lances when you can just give them weak ships without lances?