Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development

[BaronIveagh]

It's not about no lances. They can have them if they use the Firestorm and the Nova. It's that they're rare to have themselves as noted in the Nova entry.

Increasing the defensive capabilities of a ship is not a problem since it follows the fluff well. It has to survive to be able to get to the planet and start its planetary assault or exterminatus.

What we don't want is increasing the attack capabilities of the SM by giving them easy access to lances. BCs while it may seem perform similarly, do not. They have problems with blast markers as well as variable dice depending on the target ship's profile.

SM vessels are limited to vessels whose primary role is that of transport, delivery and suppression designed to facilitate planetary assault. That's in Armada for you.

The fanboyism comment is for people who think SM in BFG should be like what they are in 40k. Sorry, not going to happen.

Other then oddities involving the rather strange way BM work currently, still not seeing the difference, as most of the time a SC's target is either closing or moving away.  If a SC is in range and abeam of the target, you've probably made a mistake and are about to get raked stem to stern.  A BB, on the other hand, has such overpowered BCs that I regularly see them crack cruisers and most IN battleships open like eggs.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

You're doing something wrong if you're cracking an IN battleship with those BCs. You're opponents must also be so nice that they always are in your closing or away profile and not abeam.

I can see the BB cracking cruisers I can agree with. Just about any battleship can do so anyway.

[BaronIveagh]

You're doing something wrong if you're cracking an IN battleship with those BCs. You're opponents must also be so nice that they always are in your closing or away profile and not abeam.

I can see the BB cracking cruisers I can agree with. Just about any battleship can do so anyway.

It's not hard.  A battlebarge can come to new heading, a battleship can't.  Typically what happened with apocs was one of two things: they tried to use LR lances, and got crippled by the thrusters hit, and the battlebarge got in behind them, or they tried to close with the battlebarge, and the BB passed them and the used come to new heading to cross the T behind them.   Retributions typically did better, but +5 does not equal +6, and, again, typically they'ed get in behind them. 

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

It's not hard.  A battlebarge can come to new heading, a battleship can't.  Typically what happened with apocs was one of two things: they tried to use LR lances, and got crippled by the thrusters hit, and the battlebarge got in behind them, or they tried to close with the battlebarge, and the BB passed them and the used come to new heading to cross the T behind them.   Retributions typically did better, but +5 does not equal +6, and, again, typically they'ed get in behind them.  

Huh? Who sez the BB can Come to New Heading?

From FAQ 2007: "Space Marine battle barges as listed on p.24 may not use Come To New Heading special orders, regardless of any normal refits they may be equipped with."

So there's your "something wrong" already.

As for the Apocalypse, you do know it can Burn Retro right? So sorry, you can cross the T once but by next turn, Apoc will be Abeam.

[lastspartacus]

Cool isn't it? Just like we wanted it to be.

BECAUSE IN ESSENCE WE DO NOT WANT A LANCE AT ALL ON A STRIKE CRUISER.

Thats insanity.  When you say 'we' its confusing, as if the community as a whole had the same idea, rather than a number of people I could count on my fingers.  Making a tradeout for something weaker is self-balancing.  If you think there could not be an example of a strike cruiser in the Imperium without lances, you are simply wrong.  The proud nature of marines and the existence of the Nova prove that. 

But you don't have to play them, I certainly won't.  Charging 20 points for an already weaker option is POOR GAME DESIGN. 
Leave it alone and let the ones who want a bit different of a ship design to have their fun with their weaker ships.
It comes nowhere close to being OP, and you don't have to play with them or against them, and you certainly won't be losing to them.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Thats insanity.  When you say 'we' its confusing, as if the community as a whole had the same idea, rather than a number of people I could count on my fingers.  Making a tradeout for something weaker is self-balancing.  If you think there could not be an example of a strike cruiser in the Imperium without lances, you are simply wrong.  The proud nature of marines and the existence of the Nova prove that.

They may be proud but if the Adepticus Mechanicus won't help them build an SC with a lance, and they won't just help them, not without any go signal from another group in the Imperium's top most command structure, as sure as the Emperor's in his guilded cage the SM won't get an SC with a lance. The Novas (and Firestorms)  are escorts which the IN reluctantly agreed to allow them to have. Any lances on cap ships they have would be limited to the VBBs (which should be only given to the 1st and at best 2nd Founding Chapters).

[Plaxor]

From my understanding the VBBs were pretty much just grandfathered in to the new anti-lance policy. Something like; well if you already have the ship we wont take it away, but you can't build any more.

[Vaaish]

Charging 20 points for an already weaker option is POOR GAME DESIGN.

Not really, charging 20 points and saying it perfectly balanced is poor design, charging 20 points and saying you can take it you want but you really shouldn't be doing this often is quite fine.

[horizon]

Lovely discussion.


LS, I am megelomaniac, that's why I use the term "we" as well. And I thought everyone agreed on the no lance policy for Strike Cruisers. Ah well.

But BaronI, so many reasons have been given by now. Accepted?

And Battleships don't Come to New Heading.
On the example: The Apoc will use the extra rule on long range +30cm at least. That means there is no way the barge could be in the rear the next turn  or it would be AAF which means losing firepower.

[BaronIveagh]

It's not hard.  A battlebarge can come to new heading, a battleship can't.  Typically what happened with apocs was one of two things: they tried to use LR lances, and got crippled by the thrusters hit, and the battlebarge got in behind them, or they tried to close with the battlebarge, and the BB passed them and the used come to new heading to cross the T behind them.   Retributions typically did better, but +5 does not equal +6, and, again, typically they'ed get in behind them.  

Huh? Who sez the BB can Come to New Heading?

From FAQ 2007: "Space Marine battle barges as listed on p.24 may not use Come To New Heading special orders, regardless of any normal refits they may be equipped with."

So there's your "something wrong" already.

As for the Apocalypse, you do know it can Burn Retro right? So sorry, you can cross the T once but by next turn, Apoc will be Abeam.

Because until six months ago, no one in our area knew there was a FAQ 07, much to Horizon's astonishment.  Considering our only 'pure' SM player moved some time before that, my experiences are a little out of date.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

As they say, ignorance of the rules is no excuse. The FAQ has been in existence for 3 years already. This board was already up then as well as the yahoo list and portmaw.com. I'm sure the people at dakkadakka also knows about the FAQ since some of them also hang out here and the other sites I mentioned.

Even then, six months ago you already knew. It doesn't take long to read the FAQ.

[BaronIveagh]

As they say, ignorance of the rules is no excuse. The FAQ has been in existence for 3 years already. This board was already up then as well as the yahoo list and portmaw.com. I'm sure the people at dakkadakka also knows about the FAQ since some of them also hang out here and the other sites I mentioned.

Even then, six months ago you already knew. It doesn't take long to read the FAQ.

I've read it about seven times, but didn't catch the part about BBs.  And, you might note, I only joined any of those (other then dakka, and have you ever tried to get useful information out of people on dakka?) at that time, since that's when saw the thing on Warp Rift on warseer and Horizon pointed out to me that my information was outdated.  

I'm amazed how you take the internet for granted.  

And, regardless of my misinformation about CTNH and BBs, I still don't agree to the lance issue.  That's not how I interpret the fluff I'm reading here, and I honestly see nothing wrong with lances for SM.  I think that the str 2 lance swap for a BC was a good, balanced, idea, and would have presented a useful addition to the SM arsenal in certain circumstances.

I hate to say it, but I (cringe) agree with LS and don't see the five or six people I see post here as the 'voice of the players' any more then I think I'm the rightful rep.  

[Vaaish]

ok, lets run with that. It's easy to say what you are Baron, but lets get down to it. Why do you want marines to have access to more lances? What is the purpose of a lance?  How do lances fit into the primary role of marine vessels to transport marines and support landings?

From where I sit, you can't justify replacing BC with lances because it changes the role of the ship from planetary support to ship to ship combat which IS something that directly challenges the IN as their primary role is ship to ship combat (you could add transport of IG but that's not what I'd see their primary role as). It makes no sense that marines would willfully replace a weapon specifically designed to shell planetary targets with one that has little use unless they are planning to challenge the IN. Now does that mean lances will never be there? No, but they sure should be that attractive if you want people to play fluffy fleets.

[BaronIveagh]

ok, lets run with that. It's easy to say what you are Baron, but lets get down to it. Why do you want marines to have access to more lances? What is the purpose of a lance?  How do lances fit into the primary role of marine vessels to transport marines and support landings?

From where I sit, you can't justify replacing BC with lances because it changes the role of the ship from planetary support to ship to ship combat which IS something that directly challenges the IN as their primary role is ship to ship combat (you could add transport of IG but that's not what I'd see their primary role as). It makes no sense that marines would willfully replace a weapon specifically designed to shell planetary targets with one that has little use unless they are planning to challenge the IN. Now does that mean lances will never be there? No, but they sure should be that attractive if you want people to play fluffy fleets.

The average SM chapter probably wouldn't.  However, fleet based (BT, others) and chapters that prefer being more independent (DA) would probably insist on having something like this.  Consider: a fleet based chapter is attacked someplace: now, how long will it be before IN shows up?  a month?  a Year?  several centuries?  (not unheard of!)  If they (more or less) lack anti-ship capabilities, they're probably not going to last long enough for IN to show up. 

I would suggest that the Crusade fleet list be allowed to swap the bc for str 2 lances with the current limits (one regular SC for each variant) for free.  It's logical and fits the insular nature of these chapters.

[Vaaish]

That isn't correct because marines don't lack anti-ship weapons; they lack dedicated anti-ship weapons unless you deny that lances are dedicated anti-ship weapons. Secondly, Fleet based chapters are usually centered around special vessels or immense starstations like the Rock which could very well mount lances as part of their defensive armaments. We aren't talking about defensive installations, we are talking about marine fleets set up for offensive fleet actions against other ships which is outside of their primary function regardless of their base of operations. Third, crusades, outside of penance crusades, are generally larger affairs involving all branches of the Imperium's military so I would think it quite common for the IN to support such actions. Although not exactly a crusade, we have the Armageddon list and the wars fought in the sector as a template for such interactions.

Perhaps somewhere there are a few marine capital ships that have lances. That's what the options currently represents. It's price implying that it is exceeding rare and difficult to acquire.