Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development

[BaronIveagh]

Fluff wise, marines shouldn't have access to lances on capital ships and very limited access to escort based lances. The original lance option gave marines a very simple means of having a lance heavy fleet which they shouldn't have access to.

But.... BC is nearly identical to a lance anyway?  I mean, it's not a balance issue, because it's functionally identical except BC have more crits.  In fact, it'd actually be weaker with the lances, because so far all of them seem to be one point less. 

[Vaaish]

actually it isn't. BC is affected by BM which reduces the strength while lances aren't. Besides if it isn't a balance issue to you, fluff trumps. Marines should have easy access to lances regardless of game balance no more than Orks should have holofields.

[lastspartacus]

Ha, like thats an identical likelyhood

Like ive said before, I don't care either way.  But for those who want a few lances in their SM fleet, it won't effect us other SM players if they do so, we certainly don't have to take the option.
If you give marines an option for a free swap for a weaker option, you've balanced it right there that you won't see many lances.  I personally greatly prefer BC, they rock.  Lances are heavily frowned upon in an SM fleet, but there would be some few radical examples in some far flung chapters.  In small numbers it would be treated the same as the Nova, which actually has much less reason to mount a lance than a capital ship.

[Plaxor]

actually it isn't. BC is affected by BM which reduces the strength while lances aren't. Besides if it isn't a balance issue to you, fluff trumps. Marines should have easy access to lances regardless of game balance no more than Orks should have holofields.

Actually I would think orks would more likely end up with holofields than space marines getting lances. Space marines are bound by law of the Emperor to not have lances, and not only is that who they worship every day, they are the most lawful people in existence. Now I know you're going to argue space wolves, but one chapters radicalism shouldn't define every other. Hell over half of chapters are from the Ultramarines geneseed, and they don't break the rules.

Orks however make their ships usually out of the wrecks of enemy ships (as ork engineering is very sub-par). So if they got a hold of a panzee ship, and for whatever reason didn't blow it up because it iz 2 weedy fur da boyz! then they might end up with holofields. I think it would be an entertaining design for a character ship, possibly part of a campaign or as a warp-rift article.

An ork ship with holofields would probably still have shields, and the holofields would probably be just as detrimental as they are helpful (I.e. the ork ship gets a 4+ HAwloofeld save, but every enemy would count it as closing, because of the big target sign projected on the ship.)

[lastspartacus]

That fluff reasoning is wrong on multiple points. 

Marines are not bound by the Emperor's law to not have lances.  Its a policy instituted after the Heresy, one that they flirt with.
Marines are notorious for conflicting with the legislation imposed on them, they are a proud and elitist culture for the most part.

It may make a fun WR article, but I hope you are not seriously saying that marines using some lance tech on a tiny fraction of their ships, a tech readily available, is less likely than orks managing to maintain holofields.

[horizon]

Exactly!! We do not want lances thus we as fans persuaded the HA to make them unattractive. yay!

[lastspartacus]

A lance is a weaker option than str3 BC.  20 points additional is stupid.  Stupid.

[horizon]

Cool isn't it? Just like we wanted it to be.

BECAUSE IN ESSENCE WE DO NOT WANT A LANCE AT ALL ON A STRIKE CRUISER.

[BaronIveagh]

Cool isn't it? Just like we wanted it to be.

BECAUSE IN ESSENCE WE DO NOT WANT A LANCE AT ALL ON A STRIKE CRUISER.

Why not?  And who's 'we'?  You got a familiar in your pocket?

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Everyone who follows the fluff. Mainly people who aren't fanboys of SM.

[horizon]

Well, we as in community who gave feedback to the HA on their draft for the Marines.

And why not? Because the Codex tells us. Guilliman says so. Because Marines should have only limited access to lances. Mostly not to be honest. It is the fluff that tells us. Read Armada etc.

It was the main reason the original Seditio was burned. It had the best lances in the arsenal of the Imperium. Very against fluff. Very! The new draft incarnation is very fine.



And yes, I have three familiars.

warning,
yes.

[Vaaish]

I would be included in that group. And yes, one lance is weaker than s3 BC, but originally I believe the idea was to give them S3 forward lances or S2 LFR lances which is more powerful than the 3bc. As was noted before, they shouldn't get to have this. Why do you think there was outrage over the SO having so many lances? Because it was broken and not fluffy. Secondly, every fleet doesn't need to have access to all weapon types. Not having many lances gives Marines variety just like having BC.

[BaronIveagh]

Well, we as in community who gave feedback to the HA on their draft for the Marines.

And why not? Because the Codex tells us. Guilliman says so. Because Marines should have only limited access to lances. Mostly not to be honest. It is the fluff that tells us. Read Armada etc.

It was the main reason the original Seditio was burned. It had the best lances in the arsenal of the Imperium. Very against fluff. Very! The new draft incarnation is very fine.



And yes, I have three familiars.

warning,
yes.

I have armada open in front of me.  There is no mention of 'no lances'.  Lances are frequently used in fluff in planetary bombardment and exterminatus.  Your argument does not hold water.

And, suggesting that I am a space marine fanboy is inherently ludicrous, as I seem to be the only one against buffing Battle Barges. 

This is not fluff as written, this is fluff as you interpret it.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

It's not about no lances. They can have them if they use the Firestorm and the Nova. It's that they're rare to have themselves as noted in the Nova entry.

Increasing the defensive capabilities of a ship is not a problem since it follows the fluff well. It has to survive to be able to get to the planet and start its planetary assault or exterminatus.

What we don't want is increasing the attack capabilities of the SM by giving them easy access to lances. BCs while it may seem perform similarly, do not. They have problems with blast markers as well as variable dice depending on the target ship's profile.

SM vessels are limited to vessels whose primary role is that of transport, delivery and suppression designed to facilitate planetary assault. That's in Armada for you.

The fanboyism comment is for people who think SM in BFG should be like what they are in 40k. Sorry, not going to happen.

[Vaaish]

It does mention that the marine fleets were never to be capable of challenging the IN proper and that they be focused on transport and assault. Lances are a pinpoint weapon system primarily for ship to ship engagements but relatively useless in planetary bombardment or assault (epic lists them as pinpoint attacks and are only capable of hitting the largest vehicles like Titans or superheavy tanks). Since the primary role of Marine fleets is to transport marines to planets, why would they replace a weapon that is infinitely more capable for what they need with a weapon that is much less capable? It stands to reason that if marines aren't to take on the IN in a stand up fight, and lances are primarily for ship to ship combat, then they shouldn't be on marine ships because this would be seen as violating the IN's agreement and would see the chapter smacked down for it. This is reinforced by the distinct lack of lances on any dedicated marine vessel in armada except the Nova.