Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development

[horizon]

Well another reason why people prefer lances is because the HA went and took away a lot of the potential of WBs, making lances more valuable by contrast. You used to be able to drop a targets shields from one direction and then allow the rest of your fleet to fire unimpeded on the target from another direction. Now BMs (stupidly) count as being 'all around' as far as incoming or outgoing fire is concerned. That change removed a lot of the tactics from the game.

If we changed it back to the original (not-broken/not-OP) rule then we might encourage more WBs in peoples fleets and therefore SMs, and to an extent Orks, would have a better time of it.

Quoted for Truth (again).

I agree 100000%.

We still play per original rules.

[silashand]

Quoted for Truth (again).

I agree 100000%.

We still play per original rules.

Same here. Given that space is a 3D environment it would seem more appropriate under the original rules anyway.

Cheers, Gary

[Mazila]

Paying 50 pts for terminators is crazy - show me a sane person who would do it.

[Plaxor]

hmm... I didn't think about how the vessels are actually played. So I guess there is a point in that.

I never really understood why CSM terminators and space marine ones were different. They should both be the same, and cost 10pts.

[Mazila]

Also, why chaos SM are getting a +3 bonus (+2 for SM and +1 for chaos)? I think SM should get +3 bonus.

This will actually make them more fluffy.

[Plaxor]

Actually they addressed that in the faq. You only get one 'racial' mod, but it is understandable that chaos would get a +3 in this sense. A space marine/csm vessel only has about maybe 100 marines on it, and the rest are crew. For a cruiser that would mean that still 90,000 are just lowly scrubs, in the case of chaos these are still the normal chaos cultists, as opposed to navymen and others.

Like the ork Mega-Armored boarding parties, they only add on as it means that a small number of the crew have this improvement. Still the rest are just your standard ork, battle-ready as ever. Totaling +2.

[Atog]

"What would you say to keeping the 150% penalty and having normal VP for crippled?"  0
I think its pretty fair.


But here is another thing I want to discuss.
Many people says: "You'll never get  sm fleet able to fight as good aqs chaos or imperial, because it's unfluffy. "
Ok, I get your point. So let's take abou fluffy side of SM.
BOARDING ACTION.
You know, Space Marines ARE masters of close quarter battles. Many books , articles, funstuff  says that very small space marines squad can overcome thunderous amount of enemy troops.   

But what we have here, in BFG game? SM don't good at CQB at all!

 In most cases they don't have any bonuses at all! Because  strike cruisers are light and it's damn hard to bring it to boarding  unharmed.   And even if I made so, what will I have? +1 to roll?!?!? Is it glorious angels of death feared around all Human worlds? 

Lets consider typical boarding scene where sm strike cruiser tries to boar pirate dauntless
--Die heretics! In the name of Empraaaa!
--Wait maan, roll you die.
--We have no fear of your dies, we are Angels of Death! Oh wait... 2 vs 6 , ow shiiiiii....

You know, I thing glorious  warriors with decades of battle expirience may have more chances  to  succesfully board enemy ship. In fact SM must be LESS one-die-roll-depending.

And another thing that makes me smile -- absolutely useless and unfluffy upgrades for ridiculous prices: terminator boarding parties andhonour guard.

People, Terminators are elite  of a Chapters First Company. Most respectable and most feared warriors.
Terminators squad are trained to clean up whole ships fighting it crew without any  support. You know, first game about 40k was about "how to capture alien infested spacehulk by Terminators Squad in few easy missions " =) Ten terminators against hundred of aliens!  BUT what we have her? NOTHIN.
Once per batle, teleport attack, bla bla bla
I think it is ridiculous. 

What will say terminator sergeant or even captain to his master after it?
"My lord, in the name of His Divine Light we had successfully disable prow batteries of that heretics! Well, umm, it's already repared, but we was glorious and loose only two battle brothers! "

Terminator must be able to do SIGNIFICANT damage to enemy ship. They may have solid bonus to boarding, or roll 2d6 against critical hits table, or something like that.  And of course TBP must be able to operate from any SM capital ship.


And about Honour Guard. I think that it must be expensive and very hard hitting option. Because NG is the MOST skillful fighters of a Chapter. You know, Papa Smurf with his HG  SUCCESSFULLY  stormed Tyranids Hiveship at Battle for Macragge.  Is it possible to imagine foe more difficult to defeat? Maybe Necrons Doom Engine, but nothing else can be compared with hiveship!  But what we have again? Another puny teleport attack !

To be honest, I don't think that  HG is    necessary option. For they take part in fight very rarely. As rare as Chaper Master himself.

But If you want to include that option anyway, It must be very ( i mean VERY) destructive. 
Kinda "one time per battle d6 damage in boarding action " and of course that upgrade must be available only for BB(VBB). 




 

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

While I do agree SM are good at boarding, I don't think they're that good at boarding. I think you're mistaking the Boarding Rules. +2 is quite good, much better than double boarding value.

[Mazila]

My point is that +3 gives you a guaranteed draw with SMSC on a roll of 4+ vs normal cruiser and 5+  against chaos\orks.

With Barge it will be a roll of 2+ for regular cruiser and 3+ for chaos\orks - which seams more balanced to me.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Uh, the ship the SM is boarding most likely will have BM so that's +1. If it's on SO (and remember that BFI is an SO), it's another +1. If it's crippled, it's another +1 to the D6 roll. I really think +2 is quite enough for SM.

If that still isn't enough, the SCs can tag team the target cruiser.

[Atog]

While I do agree SM are good at boarding, I don't think they're that good at boarding. I think you're mistaking the Boarding Rules. +2 is quite good, much better than double boarding value.

Am I mistaken?

Would you please write down here  boarding  action of a strike cruiser against ordinary 8/2 cruiser.

[Mazila]

Uh, the ship the SM is boarding most likely will have BM so that's +1 - thats 0 since blast marker counts as being all around so they both have it. Makes me feel you guys are lost in all those FAQ's from time to time.

I am not taking into account crippled ships since Marines should be signifficantly better VS any opponent. The fact that SMSC has 6 hits negates that and makes it actually "safer" to shoot things instead of boarding.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Boarding happens like this:

1. Each player will roll a D6.
2. To the D6, you add modifiers from the table in the main rulebook. In this case SM gets +2 to the die roll already. If the target ship has BM, add another +1. If the target ship is on Special Orders, add another +1. If the target ship is crippled, add another +2. So that's potentially D6+3 to D6+6 to your die roll.
3. Now Boarding Value works like this: compare the remaining hit points of each ship involved in the boarding action. BV for an undamaged SC would be 6. An undamaged target cruiser with 8 hp and 2 turrets would have a Boarding Value of 10. So 6 vs 10. Checking the Boarding Modifier Table, this means the target cruiser has a BV higher than the SC. So the target cruiser's owning player gets a +1 to his D6 roll.

Note that some races have a rule which doubles their BV. Assuming this is the case, the target cruiser would then have a BV of 20 which under the Boarding Modifier Table means the ship has a BV 3x as much as the SC and so will get a +3 modifier. So be careful which race you board against. Nids are nasty this way.

So assuming still full HP SC vs still full HP normal cruiser without race modifiers with 8 hits and 2 turrets, it would be D6+2 vs D6+1.
If target cruiser has BM, quite likely, it becomes D6+3 vs D6+1.
If target cruiser is on Special Orders like BFI, it becomes D6+4 vs D6+1.
If target cruiser is crippled, it becomes D6+7 vs D6+0 (since the SC would now have more HP than the target cruiser).

If target cruiser is tag teamed by 2 SCs, the SCs would now have a higher BV (12 vs 10 assuming undamaged). So it now rolls D6+2 (for being SM)+1 for having higher Boarding Value vs D6.
If target cruiser tag teamed has BM on it, it becomed D6+4 vs D6.
And so on.

The difference bet the D6 rolls would be the damage inflicted on the loser. Then there's also the crit rolls which improves the higher the difference.

Nasty, no?

Edited some errors.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Uh, the ship the SM is boarding most likely will have BM so that's +1 - thats 0 since blast marker counts as being all around so they both have it. Makes me feel you guys are lost in all those FAQ's from time to time.

No. Note the wording in the Boarding Modifier table. If the Enemy ship has Blast Markers in contact. The boarding vessel is not affected here. Although I do see where there might be a problem with the wording of the BM rules. Would be best to have the HA address it definitively.

I am not taking into account crippled ships since Marines should be signifficantly better VS any opponent. The fact that SMSC has 6 hits negates that and makes it actually "safer" to shoot things instead of boarding.

Again, you can tag team the target ship, which one should be doing anyway if you want a guaranteed success.

[horizon]

All these years I have never seen boarding explained better. This should be in the FAQ. heh