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Author Topic: Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development  (Read 263714 times)

Offline Atog

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Re: Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development
« Reply #405 on: November 13, 2010, 09:09:15 AM »
The comparison has to be between the marine BB and the ship used as the VBB because that is what it will be competing for the Battleship slot in a marine fleet.
I disagree. Most of fleets has  ships that no mach other fleets option.  
Oberon, Apocalypse  in Armageddon Fleet.
Chaos ships, as was mentioned before.

Tau protector is WAAAAY better than standart missile ship.   Or consider eldar aconite. Why don't you suggest to raise hemlocks and nightshades point costs to make aconite more desirable choice?

Kind sir, the fact is current official SM  rules is bad. We have not any solid line cruiser. That why comes StC shield upgrade and TH-BC swap options. We have not good battleship. And standard BB is overpriced crap that good only in two scenarios. That's   why was intentioned VBB options.

And  WHOLE POINT of that topic is  to develop playable SM fleet rules! That will  brings challenge to my opponent at any scenario. And will brings joy for SM player in any game rather then "Hey look! I'm rollin AAF for my Strikes  at blockade run! "
 

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An here i dare to suggest following solution.
- Only IN b-ships and grand cruisers as VBB .  
- No penalties for loosing ship.
- 50 pts for sm crew because b-ship or g -cruiser significantly larger than usual cruiser

 

« Last Edit: November 13, 2010, 09:28:44 AM by Atog »

Offline Admiral_d_Artagnan

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Re: Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development
« Reply #406 on: November 13, 2010, 01:38:44 PM »
Kind sir, the fact is current official SM  rules is bad. We have not any solid line cruiser. That why comes StC shield upgrade and TH-BC swap options. We have not good battleship. And standard BB is overpriced crap that good only in two scenarios. That's   why was intentioned VBB options.

While the rules do need improving, they should be improved within the context of the SM fluff. The fact is, the SM are not supposed to be a fleet engagement race. They are supposed to be strong in Planetary Assault and Exterminatus. When you take this into account, the SM BB is not an overpriced crap.

The VBB option was introduced to introduce variety but personally, VBBs should only be limited to First and Second Founding Chapters. Anything beyond those 2 Foundings, they should take the generic BB and its variants which should be introduced. The BB and its variant should always be the first option before taking any VBB.

And  WHOLE POINT of that topic is  to develop playable SM fleet rules! That will  brings challenge to my opponent at any scenario. And will brings joy for SM player in any game rather then "Hey look! I'm rollin AAF for my Strikes  at blockade run! "

Wrong on the first part. Again, SM in BFG is not SM in 40k where they reign supreme. They should not be having even close to the same joy as they have in 40k. SM should only be good in Planetary Assault and Exterminatus. Maybe even Blockade Run. But anything which requires Fleet Engagement they should be at a disadvantage. However, I do agree their rules need to be upgraded to add variants and not even lance variants. If we were introducing a lance variant and making it very expensive for the race to use then I say might as well not have it at all. Just give them something they can use at a price they can afford.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2010, 09:53:29 PM by Admiral_d_Artagnan »

Offline Atog

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Re: Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development
« Reply #407 on: November 13, 2010, 01:56:08 PM »
"they should be improved within the context of the SM fluff."
Are they? Why?  "Just because"??  
If we will talk about fluff I 'll say that whole SM fleet  is "unfluffy" regarding that game. Because BFG is about  ruthless space battles between mighty fleets.  Battles that sm fleet must avoid, according to background.  

You said that SM is good for what they designed: Exterminatus and Planetfall. Do you really think that it is good idea to buy, assemble and paint fleet for 2 missions only, because it's damn fluffy?
GW had closed BFG project, because it was economically ineffective. People don't want very fluffy but unbalanced rules, so that game was "sinked".

But look at 40k. That is very popular and very unfluffy.  

Don't you want to see new players with new game approach and fleets?  Why when I came to local tournament i don't see many marines?  Or orks? Because their rules are silly!  I have many fleets: necrons, orks, sm. But when comes kick ass time, I'm picking IMPERIAL NAVY. Because it's rocks. Many other players do same. And I found that kinda boring.

So why must we repeat mistakes that was made by game creators?  Why can't we made less fluffy but more balanced rules that will allow play not only In vs Chaos games?

 
« Last Edit: November 13, 2010, 02:00:33 PM by Atog »

Offline Admiral_d_Artagnan

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Re: Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development
« Reply #408 on: November 13, 2010, 02:03:05 PM »
"they should be improved within the context of the SM fluff."
Are they? Why?  "Just because"?? 
If we will talk about fluff I 'll say that whole SM fleet  is "unfluffy" regarding that game. Because BFG is about  ruthless space battles between mighty fleets.  Battles that sm fleet must avoid, according to background. 

Codex Astartes dictates why and they are fluffy indeed according to the rules set down by Roboute himsled.

You said that SM is good for what they designed: Exterminatus and Planetfall. Do you really think that it is good idea to buy, assemble and paint fleet for 2 missions only, because it's damn fluffy?

They should excel in those two. They might be able to succeed in the other scenarios but they should not have an easy time of it. And yes, it is a good idea as long as you stick to your strengths.

GW had closed BFG project, because it was economically ineffective. People don't want very fluffy but unbalanced rules, so that game was "sinked".

That is what you think. GW focused on their core games but I will say BFG is more balanced rules wise compared to two out of the three core games.

But look at 40k. That is very popular and very unfluffy.   

Who says it is unfluffy? What's unfluffy in that game?

So why must we repeat mistakes that was made by game creators?  Why can't we made less fluffy but more balanced rules that will allow play not only In vs Chaos games?

Because fluff and the rules should go hand in hand. Sorry but obviously you are an SM 40k player. If you think they should be as good in space as on the ground, well tough. Not gonna happen. And yes, it is fluffy that way.

Offline Atog

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Re: Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development
« Reply #409 on: November 13, 2010, 02:19:04 PM »
 "Who says it is unfluffy? What's unfluffy in that game?"
Are you really want to talk about it? I'm playing 40 since 1999. I'n with all my expirience I may say. Yes, it is unfluffy.  
 
But we talking about BFG.
 
Just answer me one questions.  Why You so bother about FLUFF?   Is that policy makes you  more happy? or may-be other players very happy when you talkin about fluff?

- Hey John Doe, don't you cry about your miserable defeat.  I crashed you with my nova-cannons limit versus you puny strikecruises, and it was rather fluffy game!
- Hell Yea, d'Artagnan , you are right! Lets take some beer!!!"
:D:D:D:D:D

As for me, i don't bother fluff if it hedges my comrade from having enjoyable games.


 
 
« Last Edit: November 13, 2010, 02:30:37 PM by Atog »

Offline Sigoroth

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Re: Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development
« Reply #410 on: November 13, 2010, 03:21:31 PM »
I have no problem with SM ships under performing in fleet engagement style scenarios. In fact, I encourage it. Win percentage should be below 50 in these scenarios when using a pure SM fleet. However, there's no fluff reason why SM ships can't work in concert with IN ships. There should be an option to take a pure SM force of course, and a variety of strike cruiser fits would be good in this regard (though I happen to dislike the BC variant).

So, keep it fluffy, make SMs not so hot in fleet engagements. But allow access to IN ships. Perhaps a limited selection, or a specific ratio or a second commander requirement (SM commander and IN commander).

Offline Mazila

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Re: Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development
« Reply #411 on: November 13, 2010, 03:28:09 PM »
Quote
So, keep it fluffy, make SMs not so hot in fleet engagements. But allow access to IN ships. Perhaps a limited selection, or a specific ratio or a second commander requirement (SM commander and IN commander).

And this is exactly what Armageddon fleet list does )))

Offline Atog

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Re: Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development
« Reply #412 on: November 13, 2010, 04:01:21 PM »
Thats right.  The one and only true fluffy thing is include SM ships into IN fleet to achieve some  specific task. 

Whole that tread IS unfluffy.

Offline Vaaish

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Re: Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development
« Reply #413 on: November 13, 2010, 04:31:49 PM »
Atog, I agree that perhaps a 100% penalty is a bit much for just crippling a VBB, but I'm against removing the penalties all together like Caine is advocating because I think it helps add flavor to the VBB and also focuses back to the BB as a more desirable option by partially dictating your options on the field and giving a tangible drawback to taking whatever ship you like from IN and Chaos. The armageddon list is a tad different in that not all IN cruisers or Grand cruisers are options without reserve nor can you give IN ships marine crews.
-Vaaish

Offline lastspartacus

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Re: Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development
« Reply #414 on: November 13, 2010, 05:09:58 PM »
Increased VP is a pretty neat idea, shows the value of the ship.  100 percent is harsh though.

Offline horizon

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Re: Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development
« Reply #415 on: November 13, 2010, 07:48:37 PM »
Make it 50% be off with it then.



On fluff: it is rather important. All my fleets are background driven.
On balance: BFG is more balanced then 40k will ever be.


Marines: two scenarios they should excell in, yes cool. And a fleet engagement should be not a no brainer but a hard task for a Marine fleet to get a win out of it.

Offline Admiral_d_Artagnan

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Re: Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development
« Reply #416 on: November 13, 2010, 08:15:56 PM »
"Who says it is unfluffy? What's unfluffy in that game?"
Are you really want to talk about it? I'm playing 40 since 1999. I'n with all my expirience I may say. Yes, it is unfluffy.  

I would like to see what you think is unfluffy about it but since you said:
 
But we talking about BFG.

Let's focus on BFG then. Most of the rules here are based on the general fluff as much as can be. While there are some discrepancies in the timeline (which doesn't affect the stats) and ship design (which do), the finished product is quite ok.
 
Just answer me one questions.  Why You so bother about FLUFF?   Is that policy makes you  more happy? or may-be other players very happy when you talkin about fluff?

I bother because from the fluff I know what a race should have or should not have.

As for me, i don't bother fluff if it hedges my comrade from having enjoyable games.

Sure, easy enough to disregard it. Then again why wouldn't you have aany enjoyable games? There are things which do need to be addressed. Personally, I really think it's time for BFG Mk 2. Unfortunately, there is no go signal yet from the HAs bosses. We don't know why this is so when another gaming company has done it on a more massive scale with community input to boot.

Going back to SM:
1. They should refocus is to ensure maximum survival but at the expense of armament efficiency.
2. They should rebalance the SC by reducing 1 TH and adding 1 Shield for no change.
3. They should add more variety to allow the SM options but this variety should be within the SM fluff and doctrine and not marginalize the classes available to them.

To reiterate, SM in BFG are not SM in 40k as Zelnik has pointed out. They are not the gods in BFG that they are in 40k. They should be able to perform excellently in Planetary Assault and Exterminatus scenarios. They should be able to succeed in the other scenarios but success should not come easily compared to the fleet oriented races.

Offline Atog

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Re: Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development
« Reply #417 on: November 13, 2010, 09:37:51 PM »
On balance: BFG is more balanced then 40k will ever be.
Oh yeeees. So good balanced that you have to produce new FAQs and clarification since 2005 year?
I don't reccall exact date of "Unofficial FAQ 1.3" but  i guess it's near 2005.

So good balanced game, that local communities have to involve several homerules to make game playable?  I mean nova cannon limitation, maximum count of  x60 lances limitation ,max launch bays. Man, sometimes we have to ban whole roster, to make game more enjoyable.

You know, for over 10 years of play 0k, I remember only  one  roster, that deserves ban. Seer Counsil of 3rd edition.

But here we have hemlock\shade limit, dirge limit, nc limit, chaos-lance-fleet-of-doom and  many other rosters that make game  crappy. 

If  You say it's balanced. And way better than 40k, i'm just have nothing more  to say.


 
   





Offline Admiral_d_Artagnan

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Re: Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development
« Reply #418 on: November 13, 2010, 09:52:55 PM »
Oh yeeees. So good balanced that you have to produce new FAQs and clarification since 2005 year?
I don't reccall exact date of "Unofficial FAQ 1.3" but  i guess it's near 2005.

As compared to 40k which produces FAQs and INATs every year (sometiems multiple times per year) and still has so many unresolved issues? Please. Aside from which, FAQs are not indicative of the balance in a game. The steadiness of the models' rules are. And nothing has changed much in the BFG universe except when they released BFG 1.5 and even then the stats mostly remained the same. Costs were the ones which did change and even then not so many.

Compare that to say, the nth time the SM Codex has come out in 40k? Or C:SM? Or Orks? Or IG? And there are still unbalanced models even when those new releases have come out.

So good balanced game, that local communities have to involve several homerules to make game playable?  I mean nova cannon limitation, maximum count of  x60 lances limitation ,max launch bays. Man, sometimes we have to ban whole roster, to make game more enjoyable.

NC limitation has just come out, which I do not agree with by the way. I haven't heard of any lance or LB limitations. If that's what your gaming group goes, that's fine as long as the decision is come to mutually between all parties. However, as of yet, there are NO limitations. Not even the NC.


You know, for over 10 years of play 0k, I remember only  one  roster, that deserves ban. Seer Counsil of 3rd edition.

But here we have hemlock\shade limit, dirge limit, nc limit, chaos-lance-fleet-of-doom and  many other rosters that make game  crappy.  

I know English is not your native tongue but you really have to understand, NC limit is something that is currently proposed and note again, people are not agreeing with it. The Hemlock/Shade issue came up in support of the NC issue. Meaning people are saying if you think the NC is broken, then you better look at other combinations like the Hemlock/Shade. People are not saying to limit them. Rather the opposite. I have not seen nor heard of limiting Dirges and lances.

If  You say it's balanced. And way better than 40k, i'm just have nothing more  to say.

Very much, sir. It is more balanced. There is no one fleet which is really dominant over another though the last 2 years Tau has won the major tournament. Even Orks have won tournaments and they're one of the more marginalized fleets. Imperials for all their short ranged weaponry or expensive launch bays can win against the other races. SM for all its difficulty in winning scenarios other than Planetary Assault and Exterminatus can win but the player has to really learn to use his fleet and that's all right.

Please realize that 40k is the worst example you can give for balanced gaming.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2010, 09:55:43 PM by Admiral_d_Artagnan »

Offline Vaaish

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Re: Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development
« Reply #419 on: November 13, 2010, 10:18:33 PM »
Horizon, I'd be fine with 50% for crippled, or even standard points with the 150% penalty for having it destroyed. Would give incentive to disengage it to keep from the penalty
-Vaaish