Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development

[Vaaish]

If there wasn't a penalty, everyone would likely field a VBB of some kind rather than your base BB. In a typical game, you are only going to see max two battlebarges. With the standard BB 425 points, you have a huge range of options that are cheaper and would bring heavy lances or other weapons to the fleet even with the extra 35 points for the marine crew. Take for instance the desolator, for 335 points (90 points cheaper than the BB) I can bring s8 (p/sb) 60cm lances, 5 cm better speed, an extra shield and turret, and spit out 9 torpedoes. There needs to be some drawback for fielding something like that in the marine fleet and the VP penalty does this.

Other examples would be an apocalypse for 400 points (25 points cheaper and can pump out a NC and six 60cm lances per side LO) or Emperors for 400 points, etc.

[Caine-HoA]

Others can field those ships anyway and even cheaper.
I understand your point but having lances on one ship wot win you the game.
Chaos can field an excellent repulsive or an desolator to get torpedoes they usually dont have. Having no torpedos is one of the few disadvatages of chaos, still thay have 2 ships to compensate that with no extra penalty.
Having no lances in a SM fleet is one of their disadvantages they have no ship (without the VBB) to compensate that (i didnt count escorts for chaos/torpedoes so i dont count them for sm/lances).
Most ppl would agree that SM are one of the weaker fleets in BFG so why dont give tham this one ship without a penalty (they already have to expent 35points extra, for SM crew they dont need on some ships).

[Vaaish]

Doesn't matter if other races can field the ships or if they are cheaper. The comparison has to be between the marine BB and the ship used as the VBB because that is what it will be competing for the Battleship slot in a marine fleet. The thing here isn't just the Marines getting easy access to lances by using VBB, it's that they are able to do so by using a platform that would arguably be better than their normal options at a price that is less than their own BB which gives them more points to spend on other ships. Since this option also nets them the ability to field 60cm weapons, both WB and Lances, and a battleship that can keep up with the strike cruisers why even bother with a battle barge?

The serious VP penalty means you actually have to think about whether or not to field the things and if you do field them you have to be more careful as to how you use them. Perhaps 100% VP penalty for crippling them is a bit much, but I think the higher VP if the ship is destroyed is warranted.

[Caine-HoA]

And if chaos takes a desolator it is cheaper than a despoiler and has the same speed as chaos cruisers, so was it a failure to give chaos two different ships with different advantages?
A Battle Barge has its own advantages e.g. armor 6 all around, so i dont think noone would ever use it again.

Furthermore remember that the VBB already exists in current pdfs without a penalty and all SM players i played against still use normal Battle Barges in their fleets. Why would they do that?

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

And if chaos takes a desolator it is cheaper than a despoiler and has the same speed as chaos cruisers, so was it a failure to give chaos two different ships with different advantages?
A Battle Barge has its own advantages e.g. armor 6 all around, so i dont think noone would ever use it again.

And people mostly take the Desolator over the Despoiler. One can do a lot of things with 100 points difference, lance battleship and one which can keep up with your regular cruisers.

Furthermore remember that the VBB already exists in current pdfs without a penalty and all SM players i played against still use normal Battle Barges in their fleets. Why would they do that?

No, VBBs are not yet legal. The only legal SM list is the one in Armada. This new list is the one which the HA hopes will make the VBB legal.

[Vaaish]

And if chaos takes a desolator it is cheaper than a despoiler and has the same speed as chaos cruisers, so was it a failure to give chaos two different ships with different advantages?

What chaos fleets do really has no bearing on what the same ship would do in a marine fleet. Chaos has plenty of options for lances, long range weapons and speed that don't revolve around glorified light cruisers. Marines by their design do not have access to these things without severe penalty (lance option for a SC, it'll cost ya or it'll go on the most expensive escort available to the Imperium). Following the desolator example, that cheaper battleship gives you a whole host of options like 60cm weapons, higher speed, and better defenses as well as freeing up a sizable chunk of points for other things be it more escorts or shields on your SCs.

Regardless, the point being that you can get options normally unavailable to marines that fill intentional gaps in the list with no penalty while freeing up points to further boost your fleet. Having that penalty makes the regular BB more desirable and leaves the VBB as an interesting fluff option that will still have competitive value if used carefully.

As the admiral mentioned, VBB aren't legal until the new marine lists become official. It does not exist in the official books or PDF's from GW.

[Mazila]

Maybe a decrease in cripple penalty will work? 50% for cripple, but keep 150% for destroyed? Also, you could make venerable BB cost +50pts for SMcrew and  venerable BC|HC cost +35 pts?

[Caine-HoA]

I didnt say the VBB is legal i said it exists.

How many ppl play with FW Tau still they arent available at GW. I talked about what is played not what i legal. And VBBs are already in rules that are used in many playing groups.

[Vaaish]

FW tau isn't a good comparison, FW is a subsidiary of GW and they did up until their site redesign have rules that were official and available for download as well printed in the IA books. I've also yet to see a tourny that allows unofficial ships and even if a gaming group does have some people using VBB, they still require approval of the opponent to field since they are not yet official ships.

Once VBB are a legal and accessible option for marines, I think that without the VP penalty you will see more tournament fleets centered around the chaos ships.

Mazila: I think 50% could work better for crippled since it would keep the drawback for taking a VBB and letting it get destroyed but not trash a player if it gets crippled.

[Caine-HoA]

And the SM Rules are from Andy Chambers the author of the game presented in a hobby magazine.

We arent talking about 40k where every week there is a tournament, so in my opinion the game is more defined by the usual playing groups than by tournaments. Maybe we should discuss about those two fields of playing the game seperatly.
I think the game is by far more often played without tournament rules. Many gaming groups use several of the unofficial/non legal pdf so why should we ignore how the game is already played when making more rules.

Do you really think the usual SM setup will be too strong with one ship as variety? Even if they get 60cm weapons on ONE ship what could the do with it scratch shields? But with different options they could try out different tactics with SM thus having more diverse gameplay and maybe more fun in the end.

And in the usual gaming group you could even talk about what game you like to play and as an enemy why couldnt you ask the SM player not to field the same chaos ship over and over. Like maybe the SM player would ask the chaos player not to use only lance cruisers. Thats the normal conversation that takes place in a small group of player we usually have for BFG. I dont know whith how many player you play but in my old group we were about 4-5 and in my new there are timewise 7 players but most of the time about 5 as well.

[Vaaish]

Just because Andy designed the game doesn't make everything he wrote official. The VBB was never rolled into the official rules so it doesn't matter that it was printed in a hobby magazine or even who made them up. Until the new PDF goes live, if people in your gaming group let VBB rules be used that's their business and fine for your group but it doesn't make the rules official.

To the point at hand, we aren't talking about removing the VBB from the list. When the new Marine PDF goes up they will be official and allowed. The discussion here is about the VP penalty which in no way prevents a person from taking them. All it does is make VBB a less competitive option for tournament play and something to protect and use delicately as fitting a revered vessel. You can still take one and have fun with it. Perhaps it is a bit harsh to give 100% VP for just crippling the ship, but the penalty balances the ability to take any ship you want from any imperial or chaos fleet ignoring all reserve restrictions and requirements and retrofitting them with marine crews for the cost of a single escort.

If I thought that taking a VBB would make marines too strong, I'd have raised an issue with the concept from the beginning. I don't think it will make marines too strong, but I also think that with no downside makes it the no brainer choice in a marine fleet.

[lastspartacus]

Just cuz Andy wrote the game doesn't mean it was flawless and cant be improved apon

[Caine-HoA]

I still didnt say its official or legal, i said its used ;-)

How can a option where you have to chose from many ships be a no brainer?

Moreover its a no brainer to take a Nightshade only fleet with eldar, or a devastation only fleet with chaos or several other fleet options that are not even restricted by the official rules. So what happens for tournaments? They make their own restrictions and when doing that and someone doesnt like VBBs they can restrict them. Its just not necessary to give a penalty that only affects after game statistics who won in a close game for a option that makes a boring list more interesting. Even more if it is not seen as making the fleet to strong.

[Vaaish]

Caine, it can be a no brainer to take the VBB option over the BB even if there are multiple ships that can be used as the VBB. Think of the VBB and BB as top level choices with the VBB split into multiple sub choices. If the VBB sub choices always make more sense than the BB, then the VBB becomes a no brainer despite there being multiple ships that can be taken as VBB's.

[Mazila]

The only problem here is that no one will ever take a cruiser as VBB since it is too easy to cripple and SM will actually have to disengage it after 2-3 hits taken. I mean this is not really a style of SM to go: "Oh noes, our precious and glorious barge has taken a hit!!! Retreat before it looses more of that precious 10 millenium old chapter paint!!!!" We shall know fear when our paint is at stake!!!!