Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development

[horizon]

Look, no one around this place will ever except the SO with current stats. Give it batteries, drop lances, all of them and we start talking again.
This ship is just a thing, a heresy, on its own within BFG. And it is like a daemon hunting is every year now and then.
I still wish the original writer would join us and explain his Chaos tainted design. lol


Doctrines would be bad. Not really.

What one could do is have some varietes per sort of chapter. Dark Angels would use more rapid vessels and Hunters as fluff dictates opposed to another chapter like Black Templars who are crusaders. It would not affect their ability in space but the choice of vessels they have.

[lastspartacus]

Why would Doctrines be bad?  AKA how would they take away from the fleet list?


Thanks for the thoughts on the 'software' though.
Thoughts about the 'hardware' ideas?

[Vaaish]

What one could do is have some varietes per sort of chapter. Dark Angels would use more rapid vessels and Hunters as fluff dictates opposed to another chapter like Black Templars who are crusaders. It would not affect their ability in space but the choice of vessels they have.

going a route like this begs the question, through, why not just use the regular fleet list? It's already more than capable of representing a wide range of fleet options including the use of faster vessels like in your example. This could easily be summed up in a small article entitled Marine chapters in BFG and discussing how to best represent the fleet preferences of the various chapters with the options available or discussing aesthetics preferred by chapters for conversions.

[lastspartacus]

I am more a mind similarly, to just give the marines options, and if you want to color a fleet a certain way, just take a certain kind of fleet layout.

[horizon]

What one could do is have some varietes per sort of chapter. Dark Angels would use more rapid vessels and Hunters as fluff dictates opposed to another chapter like Black Templars who are crusaders. It would not affect their ability in space but the choice of vessels they have.

going a route like this begs the question, through, why not just use the regular fleet list? It's already more than capable of representing a wide range of fleet options including the use of faster vessels like in your example. This could easily be summed up in a small article entitled Marine chapters in BFG and discussing how to best represent the fleet preferences of the various chapters with the options available or discussing aesthetics preferred by chapters for conversions.

Yeah, I put it a bit wrong. 'Grasping' such fleet selections in rules is not the way. But they should be used as guidelines for the players wanting to 'fluff' their fleets.

A bit like the guidelines Ray Bell wrote for the Craftworlds (Warp Rift...ehm....12).

[Zelnik]

On a strictly practical sense, thete will not be ven barges simply because there is not enough support and far too much resistance.

If you want to talk systemics, it is impossible to balance, and has basis in extremely questional fluff outside of the rulebook.

And get with the program. No. Doctrines.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

in regards to the gifts given by the emprah, the chapters in question probably would never bring them into battle for fear of losing them.  (I personally think it's the result of extremely poor writing)

Also, they are extremely RARE. So rare that the odds of them appearing in a battle are SMALL.

SM aren't sentimental. They WILL use them.

[Zelnik]

The hell you say???

We are talking about hyper religious, xenophobic killing machines that eradicate entire planets to protect a secret or to reclaim artifacts.  Sentimentality is what they are known for.  Anyone would question the use of a gift from the emperor himself in the dangers of combat, or the use of potentially demon infested ships known to fall to the dark powers.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

On a strictly practical sense, thete will not be ven barges simply because there is not enough support and far too much resistance.

If you want to talk systemics, it is impossible to balance, and has basis in extremely questional fluff outside of the rulebook.

I haven't seen much resistance to VBBs. So far, you're the only one I've seen resisting the idea. People do support VBBs. If lances are the problem, the SM can just be denied access to the ones with lots of long range lances. A simple enough fix for balance. Questionable fluff? That's not as good a reason as balance issues. Still, again I would limit it to the First and Second Founding Chapters to satisfy your fluff question.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

The hell you say???

We are talking about hyper religious, xenophobic killing machines that eradicate entire planets to protect a secret or to reclaim artifacts.  Sentimentality is what they are known for.  Anyone would question the use of a gift from the emperor himself in the dangers of combat, or the use of potentially demon infested ships known to fall to the dark powers.

Hell yes I say!

The VBB is not an artifact. It's a weapon. It's to be used. You want artifacts, look at something like the Spear of Russ! THAT is an artifact! That is to be protected because legend has it that it will be reclaimed by Russ and used in the final battle. Logan Grimnar has a special weapon. That doesn't stop him form using it. Same witn Ragnar. He has a special weapon that came from or before the time of  the Emperor's rise. He uses it with gusto. So unless the VBB has a legend attached to it that Russ or whatever Primarch is coming back to use it, they WILL use it.

C'mon, stop justifying your dislike for VBBs with something so inane as it will not be used because it is a rare ship. They WILL use it.

[Zelnik]

Show me evidence in the 40 k rulebook, epic rulebook, space marine codex or the bfg rulebook armada or otherwise that they even exist. Those books are the only ones that matter.

You are letting your rampant fanboyism for space marines come before anything else. Also, vaaish also expressed his dislike for them.

Space marines are NOT important in this setting. If you desire to play with imperial navy ships, play imperial navy.  If you want to play with chaos ships, play chaos.   Stop trying to turn this game into 40k

[fracas]

i believe there should be another variant to the SC
but giving SM doctrines just gives them too much options, perhaps even more options than chaos and that just doesn't seem right.

1 barge
make it venerable by giving it Terminators

2 SCs, both with increase shields to 2
one has greater TH option
one has greater BombCan option (not 45cm)

[Vaaish]

Show me evidence in the 40 k rulebook, epic rulebook, space marine codex or the bfg rulebook armada or otherwise that they even exist. Those books are the only ones that matter.

I can say that you have very slim odds of finding anything to that effect in any rulebook or codex because the only one that has focus on space combat is the BBB and Armada. Epic simply doesn't go into enough detail to be useful either proving or disproving them same as all the other rulebooks outside of armada. In any event, the best course of action would be to simply see WHAT is denoted as venerable and what that entails. For that, the only example we have officially is the Venerable dreadnought. Using that as a template, it's pretty clear that being venerable doesn't grant you anything except greater skill. Looking more closely, it has the venerable rule making it "hard to Kill" which, again, is supposed to be a reflection of the entombed pilots skill rather than the dreadnought itself.

Looking back over this, I would say that venerable is simply applied as a indicator of age rather than special characteristics of the equipment itself. As such, there is some possibility that an ancient battlebarge COULD be called venerable and, having been constructed at a time where more advanced technologies were available, might have minor improvements. Stuff like +1 leadership for better sensors or more skilled crew, better targeting arrays and turrets, or improved engines could be found on ancient vessels even if the pattern itself hasn't changed.

Also, vaaish also expressed his dislike for them

I'm not opposed to venerable barges in principle, just the SedO for it's blatant disregard for the marine rules and fluff.

[Zelnik]

thanks for the clarification Vaaish.

I don't mind small benefits for having the title, however whats the point of giving leadership bonuses for a fleet that is already LD 8-9-10?

I could see things like, going on all ahead full for free, or lock on for free, but nothing so absurd as taking a battleship from another fleet. 

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Show me evidence in the 40 k rulebook, epic rulebook, space marine codex or the bfg rulebook armada or otherwise that they even exist. Those books are the only ones that matter.

And as books have shown, SM can get stuff which come from the time of the Heresy. Ven Dreads as pointed out are one.

You are letting your rampant fanboyism for space marines come before anything else. Also, vaaish also expressed his dislike for them.

Vaaish has already disputed you. You're the ONLY ONE here opposed to ideas of a VBB which only comes in one per SM list, which I even prefer to limit to First and Second Founding Chapters, which I even prefer to limit to minimal Lance battleships (preferably with Launch Bays), which I wouldn't even mind being limited to 1 in 1,500 lists.

Fanboyism? If I am letting any fanboyism affect me, I would be fighting for the SO and this current proposed list. If you cannot even identify what fanboyism is, please DO NOT apply it to others when it is so BLATANTLY OBVIOUS that there is none. While I have played Space Wolves in 40k, I have also tried IG, DH and even Nids. I played Space Wolves because I like their fluff which is where I based most of my SW list from. Also, just to add further info for you, I was never heavily into 40k (as much as I am into Warmachine Hordes right now). I do read up on their fluff but as of this year, I can truly say I am 40k free since I traded off the last of my 40k stuff.

Space marines are NOT important in this setting. If you desire to play with imperial navy ships, play imperial navy.  If you want to play with chaos ships, play chaos.   Stop trying to turn this game into 40k

Again you accuse people of making this game into 40k. What makes you think we want to make this game into 40k? By adding the VBB? Are you that afraid of a VBB that you think it translates into an automatic win for SM? Really? Wow! If those battleships were that cool then I guess IN and Chaos ought to be really dominating every race since they have access to those wonderfully, uberpowerful battleships which can sweep the enemy fleet off the table and that by adding that one ship to an SM list, we have now turned the game into 40k where SM will start DESTROYING every list that goes up against it.

How scary. NOT!