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Author Topic: Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development  (Read 263401 times)

Offline Admiral_d_Artagnan

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Re: Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development
« Reply #600 on: December 13, 2010, 03:25:43 AM »
And would not have rivaled the slaughter which is, again, the ship they would have weighed it against.  Stop trying to use modern IN, it's not fluffy in this case.

On the contrary, SC with lances and THs and supporting WB CAN rival a Slaughter. Remember that SCs have 6+ armor so can are almost as hardy as the Slaughter. Adding lances would allow the SC to now be an efficient gun platform able to tear down the shields and plink the Slaughter for damage and the existing TH loadout of Str 2 would give the Slaughter headaches. The SC has a tighter turning radius that it could get behind the Slaughter and shoot or maintain an abeam profile. All that for cheaper points. 


I'd say that the common SFD Monitor is being heavily underestimated here.  +6 and two shields and turrets make a single monitor a tough nut for a SC or a nova to crack.  One on one, a nova killing it is nearly impossible, and they cost within 10 points of each other.

Look at the speed and tell me the Monitor won't be outmaneuvered and killed by an SC? Esp one with lances.

It would not be the first time they did exactly that.  Particularly the Minotaurs and the Space Wolves.

And they almost always come out of the deal much battered and have to use teleport attacks to mess up the opposing ship. Your point?

Torps are anti-ship weapons, having no use in planetary landing support, and by your logic, prohibited.  BCs, at least for SC, are not a long range weapon, and are unsuitable for what you describe.

Torps might have no use against planetary assault but they most certainly have uses in exterminatus. IN find torps a more acceptable weapon for SM since 1. they can easily be taken out by ordnance or 2. outmaneuvered. BCs are not suitable for what I described? And why not? it's not like you need long range to hit a planet.

BCs are also powerful anti-ship weapons.  A lance only inflicts a critical hit 1/6th of the time, a BC does 50% of the time.  Since a critical hit represents massive internal damage to a ship...

Crits won't easily kill ships. Every lance hit after shields is a point of damage. BCs will hope it gets the right profile to get a lot of dice and crits will contribute to its destruction over the long run but the target ships can weather BC fire better than lances.

"Bombardment cannons are equally devastating in ship-to-ship combat, capable of blasting apart any capital ship in just a few salvoes." Armada, Page 21.

Sure just about any weapon in BFG can. But lances are much more efficient in doing so. Again, it's a problem with efficiency.

So, the Avenger is NOT a proper gunship, and not a 'true' threat to other ships, because it doesn't have lances, despite having a more powerful broadside then a Retribution class battleship?  

Yup. Sad to say, Avenger isn't. FP16 is nice but against an abeam target greater than 15 cm, that's 5 dice. See the problem? With the Retribution, that's 4 dice and 3 lances. See the difference?

Offline horizon

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Re: Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development
« Reply #601 on: December 13, 2010, 04:08:43 AM »
BaronI,
please, Vaaish also said it:

The Nova Entry clearly states:

The Lance makes the Nova a Gunboat.

I'm not native English but even I can understand that line.

Lance = Gunboat.

And I don't care about some space marine movie which suddenly has a lance. Tells me how friggin bad those BL writers can be and how daft the BL editors are. Frankly, I don't think they even care.


Offline BaronIveagh

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Re: Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development
« Reply #602 on: December 13, 2010, 04:36:59 AM »
BaronI,
please, Vaaish also said it:

The Nova Entry clearly states:

The Lance makes the Nova a Gunboat.

I'm not native English but even I can understand that line.

Lance = Gunboat.

And I don't care about some space marine movie which suddenly has a lance. Tells me how friggin bad those BL writers can be and how daft the BL editors are. Frankly, I don't think they even care.


That's nice, but so far, no one has refuted that the Damocles Command Rhino in IA2 specifically states that it contacts SC/BB for lance strikes.
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Offline horizon

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Re: Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development
« Reply #603 on: December 13, 2010, 04:41:11 AM »
No, we cannot refute a book which has been written. The thing is... it was Forgeworld who did it. You do know they wanted to make a Custodian like mega uber wonky powerful (the HA intervened). FW knows (knew?) total shyte about what happens in BFG or 40k at many points.

Also, if a BB was called for it was a VBB. ;)

Offline BaronIveagh

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Re: Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development
« Reply #604 on: December 13, 2010, 05:13:53 AM »
No, we cannot refute a book which has been written. The thing is... it was Forgeworld who did it. You do know they wanted to make a Custodian like mega uber wonky powerful (the HA intervened). FW knows (knew?) total shyte about what happens in BFG or 40k at many points.

Also, if a BB was called for it was a VBB. ;)

Compared to FFG, FW is a model of internal consistency.  Some of the revisions to existing BFG fluff make my brain burn, and they're getting official approval from GW for them, so it's canon fluff now.
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Offline Vaaish

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Re: Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development
« Reply #605 on: December 13, 2010, 06:17:10 AM »
Quote
That's nice, but so far, no one has refuted that the Damocles Command Rhino in IA2 specifically states that it contacts SC/BB for lance strikes.

Actually, those rules for the Damocles Rhino are outdated. FW released an update to IA2 last august which replaces the rules in the book and only gives the vehicle access to an orbital bombardment which is an ordnance barrage template no longer specifically stated as being a lance.

here's a link to the update on the FW site:
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/i/IA2update28AUG.pdf
« Last Edit: December 13, 2010, 06:19:48 AM by Vaaish »
-Vaaish

Offline lastspartacus

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Re: Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development
« Reply #606 on: December 13, 2010, 06:39:13 AM »
Baron, you are arguing way more than you need to.  Stick to the simple fact:
Lances are are in a space marine fleet, but there is precedent to believe that they wouldn't be nonexistant.

Limiting their inclusion and having it be a suboptimal variant is the key to them being allowed.
The only thing that needs to go is the ridiculous points cost.  If it was trading a str3 BC for 2 lances, then it would be ok at +10 points.  Not equal, but maybe enough to satisfy both parties.  Or a Str3 for 1 lance for free.  Any more is just mean spirited anal behavior. 

The anti-marine bias in this thread is palpable.  Much stronger than any fanboyism.  It is clouding the judgment of some to the point that they think its ok to charge ludicrous amounts of points for an underpowered variant.

Offline horizon

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Re: Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development
« Reply #607 on: December 13, 2010, 06:49:08 AM »
Quote
[The anti-marine bias in this thread is palpable. Much stronger than any fanboyism. It is clouding the judgment of some to the point that they think its ok to charge ludicrous amounts of points for an underpowered variant.
Oh really???

The people who do not want lance swayed the HA to the following:

* 2nd shield option for Strike Cruisers
* Prow options to replace t-hawks (BC/torps = good)
* Seditio is strong and in-line now.

We (I speak for most anti-lancers I think) also want:
* 4th turret on Barge  (free)
* 4th shield on Barge (+ few pts to me).
* strike cruiser assault variant

That is very far from anti-Marine. So don't make remarks like that LS. :)

Offline lastspartacus

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Re: Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development
« Reply #608 on: December 13, 2010, 07:13:51 AM »
I didn't mean you, Horizon.  :)

Just a rare poster got me riled enough to say that.

Offline Plaxor

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Re: Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development
« Reply #609 on: December 13, 2010, 07:15:27 AM »
Don't threaten Horizon, he'll murder us all with his gargantuan chaos fleet (IIRC, but that might've been Goya)

Offline horizon

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Re: Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development
« Reply #610 on: December 13, 2010, 07:36:35 AM »
LS, if you mean Adm.A, he is on the same wave as me regaring Marines.


Plaxor,
That'll be Goya (or Sigoroth or Ancaris).

I will just make an alliance of Craftworld Eldar, Corsair Eldar, Adeptus Mechanicus, Renegade (Chaos), Chaos, Rogue Trader, Tau CPF, Imperial Navy plus a small Marine detachment. About ~ 13500 points.

Offline Plaxor

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Re: Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development
« Reply #611 on: December 13, 2010, 07:46:56 AM »
Ah, is it Goya that lives in wyoming? because I told him that I would come play a few games with him if I was in the area (which is not that rarely) never did get around to it though, and it's been 3? 4? years.

Offline Mazila

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Re: Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development
« Reply #612 on: December 13, 2010, 09:36:24 AM »
We here in Russia were also suggesting some things to boost marines and make them more fluff-wise, so saying that ppl want to nerf Sm is stupid. You can't nerf one of the weakest fleets in BFG anyway  :)

Offline BaronIveagh

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Re: Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development
« Reply #613 on: December 13, 2010, 09:39:49 AM »
Quote
That's nice, but so far, no one has refuted that the Damocles Command Rhino in IA2 specifically states that it contacts SC/BB for lance strikes.

Actually, those rules for the Damocles Rhino are outdated. FW released an update to IA2 last august which replaces the rules in the book and only gives the vehicle access to an orbital bombardment which is an ordnance barrage template no longer specifically stated as being a lance.

here's a link to the update on the FW site:
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/i/IA2update28AUG.pdf

I'm aware of that.  However, it still follows the lance weapon profile.  They changed it for the same reasons they have the Chapter master the ability: they feel that new players are coming in due to the video games.  Since the main characters in that can call down what looks like a lance strike, they'd give the genetic 'chapter master' a lance strike.  To avoid alienating fatbeards, they give it a generic name.

The strike cruiser Excoriatior used lances to cripple an Endeavor class cruiser in Throne of Lies, but it's not clear if it had them before it was taken by the Nightlords.  

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Offline Sigoroth

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Re: Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development
« Reply #614 on: December 13, 2010, 11:39:59 AM »
What they call a lance (surgical strike) in 40k could/would be completely different from what they'd call them in BFG. Don't forget, lance/WB are classes of weaponry, not specific names for weaponry. And if something like a Tau railgun is a WB then I'm sure WBs can be used for precision orbital strikes. Hell, a different ammo round or cohesion focal point or energy input could produce this effect, depending on the weapon.

I imagine WBs acting like a projectile weapon for the most part, where you have to calculate the intersection between the round and the target. A lance on the other hand would be much more like the weaponry in Babylon 5, ie, scything through space.