Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development

[horizon]

Signed or so.

I must say I think Fracas idea ain't bad. That the SC has the option to take an extra shield at +10pts.

However, this would clash with the admiral's idea to lower the launch bays with an extra shield.

hmmm

[lastspartacus]

I approach the balance issues with these questions.

If I chose marines as my fleet, will I be able to consistently win with them?  Do they have the variety to keep me interested for more than a few games?

The answer comes up short for me, so thats why I'm ok with slightly undercosted ships than the norm, due to the extreme lack of options in mainline ships available to the SM. 

More options, more power.  Thats what I personally want for the SM.

What do people think of Battle Doctrines to diversify chapters?

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

There are reasons why SM do not have options at the moment other than the BB and the SC and their escorts. However, I do advocate them getting some options as long as it is in line with their role as spearhead. They're not supposed to have an easy time in fleet actions. They should excel in Planetary Assault and Exterminatus scenarios.

Changes like an Assault BB and Assault SC variants (TH heavy ships) should be allowed. The Black Ship is kinda questionable for me. Thunderhawk Annihilators should also help while not making the overpowered. The new FAQ will improve their batteries eliminating the BM issue bet WBs and BCs. I think these are enough.

 

[lastspartacus]

I totally support keeping marines within fluff.  At the same time, I think they could still get a bit of a boost without losing any fluff.

Yes, its fluffy that Marines should be at a disadvantage to a space marine fleet, but not a huge one.  Necrons in BFG are fluffy, but that doesnt mean they are fun to play against.  Marines don't even dominate if they manage to get in close.  Orks and Nids both tend to outclass them at close range.

 Even more important to me, though, are more options.  And I think Admiral and I agree on that.  I love the idea of SC variants beyond simply changes to the prow weaponry (Like the torps, would never trade for a lance).
Assault variants would be very welcome.  Siegebreaker ships that trade out some things for more bombardment cannons, just throwing out ideas.

I'd like to see Doctrines you can buy, I would like to see some kind of representation of what gives SM fleets an edge over other short range slugging fleets, with their supreme skill and training.

I'd like to see more standard terminator rules, like Chaos has, with lasting benefits.
I'd like to see generally more defensible ships to protect their valued crew.
Extra shields and turrets for the cap ships, no fluff excuse for them not to be armored to the teeth.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Doctrines are interesting but unlike 40k, I don't think there will a significant impact on how SM operate other than dome prefer to board more than others. The differences in tactics on the ground do not translate well to starship combat. No harm though if someone came up with something. I tried my best in my unofficial Space Wolf fleet list as well as Ray's Black Templar list.

[Zelnik]

There has already been some suggestions to add the Blackship in as a cannon vessel.  I strongly suggest that the blackship be added to the fleet as a 0-1.

While it's true you only get 1, it is an extremely potent vessel with all of the benefits of being space marine. It not only fits in with the fluff, but with the fleet.

For those of you who don't know it's stats, here they are.

270 pts.
Cruiser/8 45 turn, armor 6+, 25cm speed, 2 shields, 3 turrets

Armament:
Prow st 6 torpedo
Launch capacity 2 thunderhawks OR 3 fighters/bombers/A-boats (if added to the fleet, i would suggest just having it T-hawks for continuity's sake, would reduce point cost by 20 points)
Dorsal st 6 Bombardment cannon FLR 30cm
Port st 8 battery, L 45cm
Starboard st 8 battery R 45cm

Special rules: may go AAF for free.

[horizon]

On the BlackShip stats:
indeed: drop fighter/bomber/aboat option.
add T-Hawk annihilator option.

But fluff wise a BlackShip is a special (lol) ship to search, find and transport untrained psychic mutations, psykers, etc.
So in order I would find it cool that if this ship is taken a special sub plot must be used.

[Zhukov]

How about the Seditio Opprimere is only available when playing Tyranids?

-Zhukov

[horizon]

NEVER EVER!
VETO!
INQUISITION!
HERETIC!

No really, batteries are better against Nids anyway.

[lastspartacus]

Well obviously he means for the fluff :p

Blackship is an interesting option, but just one in any major fleet battle...well, without a squadron if ships I find they die off quickly on their own.
But hey, an option is an option.  I'm fine with it, just say marines are escorting it or something, no subplot REALLY required  to excuse it being around at the time.  Attached to the fleet, whatever.

Doctrines could be very minor things that allow small bonuses for free, allow different fleet configs, and such.
Or they could cost points and be more major things.  Say, a khornate-esque Doctrine for things like Blood Angels or Space Wolves.

[Zelnik]

I think the sub plot should be optional, but present. There are already rules that state it can't be squadroned with other cruisers, so that shows it's "one step outside" the rest of the fleet.

It really does "fit the bill" without any major changes, it's only one ship per fleet, and it doesn't really effect the feel of the fleet. It also happens to have all the benefits of a battlecruiser, battle barge, and strike cruiser with none of the negatives (45cm batteries, torpedos, 6 armor, t-hawks, 25cm speed, fast moving, great leadership, dorsal bombardment cannons)

One specific thing that needs to be done is a rules clarification that it gains the benefit for the space marine boarding 2+, though odds are the boarding will be done by Sisters of Battle

Space marines don't get lances, aside from the nova. Sorry. Bombardment cannons are JUST Fine.  


I agree with the others that Doctrines at this scale really don't effect battle in fleet formations.  Those are represented by the stellar LD that space marines get.  Again, Space marines are NOT special at this scale, this is NOT 40k, and this is NOT their natural realm of combat. There is ONLY ONE space marine chapter focused on  fighting in space, the Astral Knights, and they were nearly eradicated in a fight against the necrons.

[lastspartacus]

Thats an interesting bit of fluff of which I was not aware.  Source?

I'd like to restate that I feel marine Terminators should be exactly the same as chaos marines.

As it is, my terminators shooting out of my desolator class in boarding torps are much scarier than the one off versions.

It also makes me wonder why thunderhawks come in such pricy and expensive numbers.

[Zelnik]

Sure. The "no lances, thanks" part is in the Armada book, page 25, under the Nova description. I will quote text.
As such, the Nova remains rare in most Space Marine fleets, a trend the
Imperial Navy, the Inquisition and other institutions perpetually concerned
by the balance of power would dearly love to see continue.

the "not their combat realm" is described earlier on page 20.

Instead, a compromise was reached which limited the
Space Marines to vessels whose primary role was
that of transport, delivery and suppression designed to facilitate planetary assault. Only the
smallest of vessels would be permitted to act
exclusively as gunships, with the larger
battlebarges and strike cruisers remaining
predominantly as aids to invasion, ensuring the
Space Marines would never present a threat to
the Imperial Navy proper

The Astral Knights can be found on the Lexicanum page here (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Astral_Knights)
I TRIED to make rules for these guys, but the idea was shot down by the same people i am arguing with here


Thunderhawks are rare and pricey because in reality, they ARE rare.  While in an atmosphere they tend to be nearly indestructible, and have plenty of staying power.  used in a space category, where ships use massive weapons that can obliterate them in a single pass, making their use a rather risky business. 

Don't forget your paying for more then just the thunderhawk, but the marines inside. They are larger then most bombers, and are only manned by space marines.  These things combined results in the "2 slots" rule.  Rarity, size and durability, the package they deliver (Space marines are supposed to be rare too, on the galactic scale )

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

I don't remember shooting down the Astral Knights idea. Been a while. There might have been objections to what you are proposing they get.

[Zelnik]

Mostly it was just "they don't exist anymore".