Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development

[Zelnik]

I don't deny this. I suggest to any space marine player to construct a blackship and use it as part of their fleet. It literally being a battlecruiser level space marine vessel.

[Vaaish]

Unfortunately, that isn't an option at the moment since the black ship isn't official and the odds are better to adjust the marine fleet with tweaks to the list itself than adding a new ship that has no available model.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

I consider myself an extreme purist when it comes to space marines. the fluff makes it clear that you should be looking to your escorts for ship cracking, and leave the boarding to your cruisers.

Strike cruisers are awesome they way  they are.  If they keep on getting krumped, maybe your using them wrong.

It's not a matter of using them wrong. it's a matter of a 1 shield capital ship. 1 shield is relatively easy to take down even with WBs. The rest of the damage gets in real easy after that  esp against a fleet with lances.

Allow me to make my point firm.

1. It says quite CLEARLY in the writeup that the space marines were systematically neutered in space after the Horus Heresy, and rightfully so to prevent it from ever happening again.  standard cruisers and lances outside of escorts are not allowed under any circumstance. (don't give me the black library garbage, we all know they pay zero attention to cannon)

No denying that.

2. It also says that strike capacity is restricted to escorts... if you hadn't noticed, their escorts are amazing. If your having problems with your fleet, take less strike cruisers and more escorts!

It's not like their escorts are harder to kill than Strike Cruisers. While it may say that strike capacity is limited to escorts, I don't think they should be their only strike capacity. Fluff still says almost each Company of a Chapter has 1 Strike Cruiser.

3. The most damning thing about the fleet composition is how it describes chapter variation... Some strike cruisers may look different, but on the whole, no chapter has any sort of special ships, technology or advantages over any other. All strike cruisers and barges are made to a standard kept strict by the Imperial Navy and the Inquisition.  Your precious ultramarines are just not that important in space, nor are space wolves, Dark angels or black templars.  If you want your fleet to represent your 40k army, build your fleet to match their style, and paint it in their schemes.  don't forget that at this scale, your armies are in the 3-4000 point rage per strike cruiser, and 10,000 point range for the battle barges... at that point there just isn't any difference in the damage they can dish out.

Yes, the SM are not that good at space combat. It does not mean that all the Chapters are that generic. Dominion does do the UM flavor well. Space Wolves definitely have something different with their extensive use of non-standard SM ships and this is canon even beyond the Black Library.  BTs would have ships which might be tailored to their crusading ways. While the ship design should be generic, it doesn't mean that variants like the Assault strike cruiser cannot be made available (sorry but I can't agree to the Dev variant. Too powerful at a cheap cost). The Assault SC is actually tailored to the SM idea of planetary assault. It's designed to drop as many TH as they can at the expense of WBs. Surely that shouldn't be problematic tactics wise.

4. According to the rules, thunderhawks take up 2 ordnance slots instead of the normal 1 that a fighter, bomber or a-boat would use.  Every strike cruiser TECHNICALLY has launch capacity 4.  If you give a light cruiser the ability to launch 4 thunderhawks, you are giving it the same launch capacity as an Emperor battleship. PLEASE justify this insanity to me.

I did point this out earlier which is why I believe it should be reduced to 1. In exchange give it Shield 2. They should be able to approach a planet with excellent chances of surviving.

[horizon]

Space Marines are ordered to do Planetary Assaults with or without Imperial Navy assistance.

Problem is that without IN assistance the Marine fleet horribly fails at doing planetary assaults.

[Zelnik]

Not in my experience. All it takes is ONE strike cruiser to get to the planet table, and hang out near the surface to win the game. Since thunderhawks give 1 assault point, and the ship itself 2, the first round results in a victory for the space marines, and the second crushes the enemy flat.

I have done several space marine planetary assault missions. If you don't focus on fighting and focus on getting your ships in low orbit, you win almost every time.

[fracas]

I think 2 variants of sc could work
A 2 shields 1 thunderhawk for crusade fleets
A 1 shield 2 thunderhawks for chapters working alongside IN
I think both should be 150pts with 2-3 teleport attack options
Thus keeping SC as SM delivery system

For a dominion fleet option allow them to upgrade any IN escorts to SM standards and restrict crusade and standard SM list to SM escorts
IMO maintaining a dominion means covering a greater area with patrols  and maintaining a presence rather than offensive capability with capital ships.

Btw, will ACs destroy SM escorts on a 5+ rather than a 4+?

I would also be fine with SM escorts getting 1 teleport attack per game

[horizon]

One Strike Cruiser is so easily surpressed it is a joke. I lost one battle vs Marines and that was my first when I had Tau attempting a breakthrough. A Barge, 2 SC and escorts stopped me. But not the SC. Only ship I destroyed.

After that I whipped Marines around with (mainly) Tau, but als Corsair Eldar, Craftworld Eldar and Chaos. My AdMech will also have an enjoyable time.

The SC first needs to get there... I wonder how you managed it Zelnik. Really.

@ Fracas, if the new assault boat rule is adopted, then yes, enemies will suffer the -1 penalty when attacking Marine escorts with assault boats, needing a 5+ to destroy them.

[Vaaish]

hmmm... the escort change might actually help marines rather considerably since their escorts die on 5+ to enemy aboats and they can kill escorts on a 3+ with their own thawks.

Fixing escorts to be more resilient will only cause people to take more of them thus allowing marines better positioning. I don't think, though, it's quite enough of a boost on its own and I'd like to see the SC get an extra shield as well. The ships are supposed to be more automated and heavily armored anyway.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Not in my experience. All it takes is ONE strike cruiser to get to the planet table, and hang out near the surface to win the game. Since thunderhawks give 1 assault point, and the ship itself 2, the first round results in a victory for the space marines, and the second crushes the enemy flat.

THs give 1 AP? I think not.

I have done several space marine planetary assault missions. If you don't focus on fighting and focus on getting your ships in low orbit, you win almost every time.

If only one SC manages to get on the planet and the rest of your fleet are destroyed, you also get -1 AP for every 500 points you lost. Somehow, I don't think the entire picture is being seen here. Aside from which, you can do nothing on your turn while assaulting. Means a ship sent after you into low orbit will be getting the pummeling of its life.

[Zelnik]

Sorry, i misread the rules, allow me to revise my findings.

Not only do they earn 2 points for landing troops, they also earn two points for BOMBARDING THE PLANET.  so each cruiser can earn 4 assault points a round.

Also the Barge can be an exterminator without replacing it's prow weapons, and activates on a 3+

If you can't AAF with your fleet enough to get into low orbit with your superior armor and speed, maybe you should reconsider your tactics or fleet composition.

Also, in low orbit, it is a righteous pain in the ass to harm other ships, considering everyone suffers column shifts and some weapons simply can't be fired.  Bombardment cannons obliterate ground defenses something fierce (that whole "defense" status is a real killer). 

yes, for every 500 points you lose 1 ap.  When you are ranking up 4-16 a round, though, i don't see it as an issue. 

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Sorry, i misread the rules, allow me to revise my findings.

Not only do they earn 2 points for landing troops, they also earn two points for BOMBARDING THE PLANET.  so each cruiser can earn 4 assault points a round.

They earn 2 AP for every turn they land troops OR bombard the planet. Not 2 APs for landing troops and 2 APs for bombarding the planet. Dude, c'mon. SM just gain 2AP instead of the normal 1 in Planetary Assault scenarios.  No additional bonuses. Note also that the Planetary Assault scenario also specifies  that "a ship deploying troops or bombarding the planet may not do anything else that turn." The wording is similar to that of the SM text. The attacking ship is doing one or the other or both and they gain 1AP (for normal ships) or 2AP (for being SM or transports) when doing so.

Also the Barge can be an exterminator without replacing it's prow weapons, and activates on a 3+

Yep. As it should be. Which would be great if you are playing Exterminatus and not Planetary Assault.

If you can't AAF with your fleet enough to get into low orbit with your superior armor and speed, maybe you should reconsider your tactics or fleet composition.

It's not as if the opponent is not going to be blocking your way even if you AAF. You're opponent has a stake in winning the game too. If you're opponents are nice enough to give you a big, wide lane to get your SC in, well good for you and be thankful for such opponents.

Also, in low orbit, it is a righteous pain in the ass to harm other ships, considering everyone suffers column shifts and some weapons simply can't be fired.  Bombardment cannons obliterate ground defenses something fierce (that whole "defense" status is a real killer).

The only weapons one needs in low orbit are the WBs and Lances. It's still one dead SC which is doing nothing at the moment against the enemy ship(s) sent out to hunt it.  

yes, for every 500 points you lose 1 ap.  When you are ranking up 4-16 a round, though, i don't see it as an issue.  

4-16 a round? You really think you can get 4-16 APs a round. Re-read the rules again. More importantly, understand the rules. And get opponents who will actually prevent your ships from getting close to the planet. Maybe you'll change your mind after.

[Horned Rat]

How about an minute fix. Make bombardment cannon 45cm for SM.

[Zelnik]

...NO? Bombardment cannons are one of the more frightening weapons in the game. 30cm is quite enough thanks!

Listen Admiral, we have clashed on this issue before. My argument is that they are just fine. No matter what your enemy can do, they can't stop you from getting to the planet unless they are absurdly lucky.  There are just too many strike cruisers and escorts. If your having problems getting enough assault points, land your escorts on the planet. They also earn 2 assault points and can't be shot at.

In low orbit, you suffer column shifts. against a 6+ armor, that's not ever a good thing.  Yes you can earn 4-16 a round, maybe you just need to adjust your tactics. The space marines don't deserve anything special. This is NOT 40k. They are SUPPOSED to be a challenging fleet. If you want an easy-win fleet, play Necrons.

[Horned Rat]

We'll being 30cm doesn't make it very scary. Even less when the poor space marine is braced from lances and tries to hit my abeam. I'd give him some slack.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Listen Admiral, we have clashed on this issue before. My argument is that they are just fine. No matter what your enemy can do, they can't stop you from getting to the planet unless they are absurdly lucky.  There are just too many strike cruisers and escorts. If your having problems getting enough assault points, land your escorts on the planet. They also earn 2 assault points and can't be shot at.

Experience says otherwise. I don't know about the quality of your opponents but please do not impugn the quality  of play of others. There is no there are just too many SCs and Escorts. Nids and Orks can swarm you. Necrons are faster. Eldar are faster. Chaos just as fast and has access to lances. Tau can out ordnance you and they have they're fair amount of lances. Only IN can be said to be a bit of a problem. It's not having a hard time getting to the planet. It's that by that time, a lot of your ships will already be killed. Knowing the scenario is Planetary Assault, why would your opponent just let you get onto the planet easily?

In low orbit, you suffer column shifts. against a 6+ armor, that's not ever a good thing.  Yes you can earn 4-16 a round, maybe you just need to adjust your tactics. The space marines don't deserve anything special. This is NOT 40k. They are SUPPOSED to be a challenging fleet. If you want an easy-win fleet, play Necrons.

Who the heck said anything about an easy win for SM? See, this is where your problem is. You think we want SM to be the end all be all just like in 40k. We are not. If we wanted them to be so, we're be clamoring for the SO and lances. Did you see me wish for them? No, on the contrary in this very thread in my first post, I showed my disapproval. I'm even advocating LOWERING the TH strength of the SCs.

It does not mean, however, they can't get anything special. I advocate keeping their current setup and ships and just increasing their defensive qualities. Nothing wrong with that, is there? Fluff-wise, you have only a few of these elite SM. Do you really just want to put them in a ship that can easily be taken out?

Can you get that mindset out of here? No one in this thread is advocating SM become an easy win button nor be the faction they are in 40k but we do know they need a bit of help. They'll be strong in PA and Exterminatus scenarios (which should be the case) earning 2 APs for each ship in orbit disembarking troops but they sure will not be earning 4-16 APs a turn easily as you seem to think. On the other hand, they will continue to have a difficult time in the other scenarios.