Eldar - ReDesign / Rules Development

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

I'd say no. Basically the Holofield messes up with the targeting systems of the opponents. If you want Lock On to still be available limit it to 30cm and below ranges. This way, it addresses Eldar survivability on long range lance and non-WB table weapons. WBs will still be able to fire but they can't really get a solid lock and have to rely on area saturation. Lances can try for a hit but good chances of missing.

If an Eldar is caught in the 30 cm band by a ship on Lock On.  WBs get their re-rolls while for lances and other non-battery weapon system, I would say for simplicity's sake that it cancels the re-roll on hits. Let that work for non-Eldar races.

Against another Eldar player, I would suggest holofield has no effect since they know how the system works.

[Zhukov]

So with all these ideas in this thread about Holofields, what about Shadowfields? The DE currently have all the advantages of the Holo with 5+ armor. So maybe we can keep the Shadowfields the same making these two systems different? With no vessel bigger than a 6 hit point cruiser it gives them some needed staying power since they don't move as fast as their Craftworld or Corsair brothers.

-Zhukov

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

That's the advantage of DE. They have better armor. I think we can have the same rules for them as their regular brethren. Unless you want to include the 40k mechanic (though I don't know if this changed in the upcoming DE Codex)?

[Zhukov]

I do not play 40K so what is the mechanic you are refering to?

-Zhukov

[horizon]

As said the aim is the same Core rules for all three Eldar fleets!

Rename holofields to shadowfields if you wish it stays the same per rules.
Read the first post.

All three same movement, holofields, turns, etc

No seperate rules for DE.

THus all Eldar 5+ prow armour, 4+ rest.

That is my suggestion.

[lastspartacus]

As eldar are an extreme alpha strike fleet, I think no allowing lock on would be going too far, as its something relating to the firing ship, and not the holofields, which still make hitting harder.  With my rules, you are still needing sixes for everything, before the eldar close and get the first heavy handed strike.

I will be playtesting a few games using my suggestions, I'd encourage others to do the same with all proposals.
I also forgot about nova cannons, and would add the reroll direct hits to my own rules, either that or half damage due to never knowing where the eldar ship actually is.

I like rerolling turret hits rather than the +1.

Edit:  Looking over the PDF again, shouldn't it be eldar fighters test against each fighter marker, rather than fighters in the wave, to represent being outnumbered?  It looks like the other way around, maybe I'm reading it wrong.

[Zelnik]

I am actually very happy with the current rules for eldar.. Yes they are strange as fuck, but so are the eldar.

Trying to unify the eldar under one ruleset really ruins their variety. The point of the different rules was to show a different philosophy between the three major factions of eldar, namely the Corsairs, the Dark eldar and the Craftworld eldar. 


So, unless you can give me a REAL GOOD REASON to unite the three fleets under a single ruleset... not happening.  We had enough of a bitchfest when someone tried to give turrets to shadowhunters!

[horizon]

Well actually that was turrets under msm rules, which in all its aspects is ofcourse ridiculous.

Why one ruleset (With flava assets to spice em)?

Because they are Eldar.

They use the same material.
They use the same (old) technologies.

The variety in the core Eldar rules is not a good way to show diversity among them. It are unique traits - ship design philosophies that do.

The current rules are just.... well.... not very well written (to be honest : the DE rules are better then the CE/CWE rules).

[horizon]

Example of ships
Corsair Eldar
Destroyer Class - 50 points

hits: 1
speed: 15/25/30
turns: 90*
Holofield
Turrets: 1
armour: 5+ prow/4+

Hemlock Weaponry
dorsal weapon batteries - 30cm - str.1 - F
keel pulsar lance - 30cm - str.1 - F

Nightshade weaponry
dorsal weapon batteries - 30cm - str.1 - F
keel torpedoes - 30cm - str.2 - F

Craftworld Eldar
Wraithship Class Attack Cruiser

hits: 6
speed: 10/15/20
turns: 45*
Holofield
Turrets: 2
armour: 5+ prow/4+

Weaponry - I
Prow Weapon Batteries - 45cm - str.8 - F
keel torpedoes - 30cm - str.4 - F

Weaponry - II
Prow Weapon Batteries - 45cm - str.8 - F
keel launch bay - 30/25/25cm - str.2 - NA

Weaponry - III
Prow Pulsar Lance - 45cm - str.2 - F
keel torpedoes - 30cm - str.4 - F

Weaponry - I
Prow Pulsar Lance - 45cm - str.2 - F
keel launch bay - 30/25/25cm - str.2 - NA

Nightwings - 30cm - fighters
Phoenix - 25cm - bombers
Vampires - 25cm - assault boats



Or sumtin like that, just threadin waters.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

As eldar are an extreme alpha strike fleet, I think no allowing lock on would be going too far, as its something relating to the firing ship, and not the holofields, which still make hitting harder.  With my rules, you are still needing sixes for everything, before the eldar close and get the first heavy handed strike.

They maybe an alpha strike fleet but as long as there are no MSM shenanigans, giving them some measure of protection vs ranged attacks should be normal. They have no shields. Their shields give them a measure of stealth. Like the F-117 and B-2, the signal is fuzzy enough that you can't lock on to it. I think it's fluffy.

[Zelnik]

Poorly written? they seem to make plenty of sense to me...


Tell me, if it's made with the same old technology, and same old materials, can you then compare a ford pinto to a GTO?

No. because the eldar actually had, during their empire days, competing ship classes and designs... just like we do.  It just so happens that they tended to end up in different hands of different people.  It's why the Dark eldar jetbikes don't look like Eldar jetbikes.

I am open to hear what ya say, because most people REALLY hate playing against the eldar, but so far i have not seen rules suitable to replace the current ones without making them feel different.

[lastspartacus]

As eldar are an extreme alpha strike fleet, I think no allowing lock on would be going too far, as its something relating to the firing ship, and not the holofields, which still make hitting harder.  With my rules, you are still needing sixes for everything, before the eldar close and get the first heavy handed strike.

They maybe an alpha strike fleet but as long as there are no MSM shenanigans, giving them some measure of protection vs ranged attacks should be normal. They have no shields. Their shields give them a measure of stealth. Like the F-117 and B-2, the signal is fuzzy enough that you can't lock on to it. I think it's fluffy.

I think the holofields are enough on their own.  They are the eldar replacement for shields.
I really dislike the idea of simply denying a special order when going against a certain fleet.  Its a game of tactics and choices, and if I have an option taken away, I would like that a whole lot less than a benefit given to the opposing fleet.

My proposed holofield rules protect much better than standard shields at range, without needing added rules of gimping the enemy fleet.

Edit:  Zelnik, are you upset because you like the MSM eldar, or you like the MMS rules as they are?
Because I would never go back to playing with or against that clunky ruleset now that I have seen the joys of MMS

I am totally for the 3 fleets sharing the same general rules.  The way they actually play and their special abilities, drawbacks, rules, etc, I feel should be pretty different, to make me want to play one or the other.  Holo/shadow-fields, MMS, armor/crit values, star-based movement, weapon bonuses.  Then the rest is different.

[horizon]

Zelnik, I didn't pay LS.

Anywhoo,

here is exact rule from the Rogue Trader book regarding Eldar Ghostfields/Holofields:

All ships firing at a ship with functioning Ghost Fields (it is earlier stated this is the defence system on Eldar ships, background states it is the same as holofields) suffer a -20 to their ballistic skill tests. If the ship is firing a lance weapon it suffers a -30 instead.

The game gives shooting modifiers for:
- firing further away then range of weapon (!) = -10
- target at half range = +10

To fire a character makes a ballistic skill test.
Skill value is between 01-100.

[horizon]

Heh found this,

the PortMaw - Xavi Version:

Eldar 'Back to their Core Wraithbones'

Movement:
apart from having high speed and good turning rate Eldar follow all normal special rules.
* Eldar do not need to pass a Leadership test to go on Come to New Heading
 
Weaponry:
pulsar lances: per current pulsar rules (up to three times)
torpedoes: may re-roll misses

Shields/Holofields


Leadership
+1 to Ld table (per current rules)

Armour:
5+ prow / 4+

Turrets:
standard

Example ships:

Corsair Hemlock
hits: 1
speed: 50cm
turn: 90*
armour 5+/4+
turrets 1
shields/holofield

pulsar lance - str.1 - 30cm - F
weapons battery - str.1 - 30cm - F


Craftworld Wraithship:
hits: 6
speed: 35cm
turn: 90*
armour 5+/4+
turrets 2
shields/holofield

pulsar lance - str.2 - 30cm - F
torpedoes - str.4 - 30cm -F


speeds:
Nightshade, Hemlock, Shadowhunter: 50cm
Aconite, Hellebore, <heavy CWE escort (old spacefleet)>, 45cm
Aurora, Solaris, Wraithship, <CWE light cruiser (old spacefleet)>, 40cm
Eclipse, Shadow, Dragonship, Flame of Asuryan, 35cm
Void Stalker, 30cm


---

lol, always the holofields question marks,

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

I think the holofields are enough on their own.  They are the eldar replacement for shields.
I really dislike the idea of simply denying a special order when going against a certain fleet.  Its a game of tactics and choices, and if I have an option taken away, I would like that a whole lot less than a benefit given to the opposing fleet.

Exactly. No shields means they will die easily if no measure of protection is given them. What's so bad about not being to lock on at ranges more than 30 cm? Stealth Fighters and Bombers are harder to lock on these days at closer ranges. Again, it is quite fluffy that one cannot Lock On on them.

My proposed holofield rules protect much better than standard shields at range, without needing added rules of gimping the enemy fleet.

But they're not supposed to be protected much better than standard shields. They should be protected about the same. That's for game balance. That was the problem with MSM. They were protected waaaaaay better than they should have been.

So to summarize:
1. No Lock On at ranges beyond 30 cm. Fluffy and definitely smacks of Stealth.
2. WBs hit normally but at 1 column shift to the right.
3. Lances hit at 5+ with hits being re-rolled.
4. Against ordnance their turrets roll 4+.
5. AC attacking Eldar do not get penalties to hit.
6. Torps attacking Eldar lose D6 torps to show how the torps spoof the torps into missing.

I think that's balanced enough.