Eldar - ReDesign / Rules Development

[horizon]

Hi,

"throw the bone..."

I called this thread Eldar because it will be about all Eldar:

Corsair
Craftworld
Dark

- The blue book brought us Corsair Eldar with the furiously debated move-shoot-move system
- Armada brought us Dark Eldar with a more standard movement system, added some flavour from Corsair and got added some new things which results in an one-trick pony fleet.
- The Doom of the Eldar pdf brought us Craftworld Eldar with the move-shoot-move system. A cruiser fleet compared to the escort fleet the Corsairs are.

Now, all three are Eldar. Yet all three have different rules. A remarkable note is that Corsair cruisers have 4+ Wraithbone and Craftworld cruisers 5+ wraithbone.

That shall be no more.

Here are my main rule ideas towards all three of the Eldar, later in this post I'll adress the individual flavour.

Movement
To be in the core of BFG we shall have none of this move-shoot-move business. A system so debated is not good to be in a rulesystem we like to show to our friends.

Eldar shall be faster then the other fleets.

But we shall keep the Sunward movement system. Why? Because it is cool.
But what about Dark Eldar? They have no sails! Well, the only fleet with sails are the Craftworld, the Corsairs are more panel like. The Dark Eldar also have these pointed wings, the have solar collectors for movement.

With that out of the way we established the following movement.

Eldar have 3 speeds, into, abeam and away from the sun. Abeam being fastest. Into slowest.

All Eldar have +5d6 AAF
Come to New Heading gains an extra turn.

Turning
Eldar may make two turns per movement phase at any point during their movement up to their turn rate per turn they make.
Above is bad...think about it: when to determine speed, keeping in mind how much it moved.

No MMS system is adapted:
1) turn up to turning value,  2) move according sunward value, 3) turn up to turning value, 4) move according sunward value.

Turn-Move-Turn-Move

The Eldar speed is determined upon the heading they had before the turning.
Note: if this is too fiddly we can drop it.

Holofields
Eldar do not have shields until someone convinces everyone else that they do have shields.

The holofield system makes it hard to target them. Enemy sensors will be thrown in dissarray.

But how do we represent this? The system should be more effective at long range then short range.
Weapon Batteries already have a build-in range effect.
Lances do not.

Many routes lead to a system.

i) Enemy must take a leadership to see if they can shoot at Eldar, use following modifiers:
 above 30cm -2 Ld
 between 15-30cm - 1 Ld
 under 15cm no modifier

If test failed the ship may not target another Eldar ship. If failed a blastmarker is placed on the Eldar ship.

I like this. Balanced it seems

BlastMarkers
When in contact with blastmarkers apply normal movement & leadership penalties. But unless the holofield is offline the Eldar ship will take no damage for being in contact with blastmarkers.
When being shot no blastmarkers are being placed. Whenever an Eldar ship travels through a blastmarker it takes damage to its prow armour value (5+). Thus per blastmarker a D6 is rolled, on a 5+ the Eldar ship takes damage.

Armour
Alle Eldar vessels:
5+ prow
4+ sides & rear
This shows the hard to hit sleek approach silhouette and the large, more vulnerable, easier to hit side with its sails / sun collectors.

Critical Hits
Eldar take critical hits on a roll of 5+.

Turrets
With the holofield not offering protection against orndnace the ships need turrets. I'd say turrets hit on a 4+, they may re-roll missed dice (like Tau tracking system).

Leadership
All Eldar have +1 Ld to the standard leadership table.

Weaponry

Weapon Battery
Eldar have a left shift on the gunnery table.

Pulsar lance
Roll a d6 per point of strength:
4-5 = 1 hit
6 = 2 hits

Ordnance
Is hit by enemy turrets on a 6+ (instead of 4+)

Yes, that's the only special ordnance rule for them.

The Flava Part
Above everything is the same for all three Eldar flavours. Now we should start adding flavours, but lets what we have:

Corsairs: raiders. Defend their position, raid anyone who trespasses, do little trade.
Craftworld: defend craftworld (incl pre-emptive strike on possible dangers), reclaiming lost maiden worlds.
Dark: collecting slaves for perverted "things".

Fleet Command

Corsairs
A bold strong individual will be needed to lead larger Corsair fleets. At any point value a Shadow Lord can be taken for 100pts. Above 1000pts he must be taken. He has Leadership 10 and 1 re-roll.

He may add a re-roll for 25pts.
He may add old friends the aspect warriors for 25pts (giving +2 in boarding and +1 on hit&runs)

Craftworld
The Craftworld fleet is led by a skilled High Admiral. For 100pts he must be taken above 1000pts. He has Leadership 10 and a re-roll.
In smaller battles he will send forth another Admiral. For 75pts he has leadership 9 and a re-roll.

Both can add 0-3 farseers for 25pts per Farseers. Farseers have a re-roll which can be used on the ship they are mounted on or a vessel within 15cm.

Dark
The Dread Archon, has +1 boarding, Leadership 10 and a re-roll for 100pts. He must be taken above 1000pts.
Under 1000pts the normal Archon may take charge for leadership 9 and +1 boarding.

Both may add a re-roll for 25pts.

Specific Race Weaponry
Corsairs
None

Craftworld
Vampire Raider assault boats.
Ghostships.

Dark
Impaler Assault Modules
Leech Torpedoes
Mimic engines

Overall quirkness
Corsairs
Will have fastest ships, short ranged weaponry. Good turn rates to escape.

Craftworld
Slowest (yeah right..) fleet consisting of mostly capital ships unless defending Craftworld directly. Longer ranged weaponry, lower turn rates.

Dark
Stealthy speedy approach. Will love to take slaves. A bit of both regarding ships. Good escape run.


...

bring out the torches.

This is just a brain melt.



Enjoy!

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

BMs ought to affect them since they have no shields. However, as they have no shields, any misses will not generate any blast markers. Then let them get a 5+ save for going through BMs. If they fail, they take a point of damage. Save also applies to an NC blast damage. They get a 5+ save against each point of damage.

Their bombers should have re-rolls to hit. As a complete opposite, Eldar should be better at Orks when making attacks while having fewer attacks than Orks.

Don't really like the Ld thing for lances. Just make it that the Eldar race in general cannot be Locked On. Then any hits by lances have to be re-rolled. Second roll stands.

[horizon]

The Ld thing is for lances & gunnery. If you only do a re-roll the range effect is gone.

Bombers with re-roll to hit. Dunno, being hit on a 6 is already advantage one, or not?

Blastmarkers: ok.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

I just don't like my lances being rendered inutile just bec I fail an Ld check. I'd rather they shoot and if they miss, they miss rather than a ship spending turns doing nothing. I mean, really, will an Eldar ship stay within 15 cm of my Gothic?

With respect to bombers, I don't mind them getting some more bonus. They are Eldar. They should shoot better as well as evade enemy fire better. Their fighters can even break the regular rule and be allowed to take out multiple enemy markers on a 2 enemy:1 Eldar ratio.

[lastspartacus]

Here is my idea, to replace the current holofield/shield thing.
'Eldar ships go back to standard 4+ armor, base.
While holofields are active:
Eldar ships to not suffer the left column shift when targeted under 15cm.
Eldar ships always benefit from a right gunnery shift when targeted. 
The armor value of an Eldar ship, when fired upon, depends on the enemy ship's range.  Beyond 30cm 6+ armor, 15-30 5+ armor, 15> 4+ armor.
Lance shots at Eldar are subject to a saving throw to avoid.  over 30 is 4+, 15-30 is 5+, 15> is 6+'
 (can go to 3+, 4+, 5+ if it is felt that this makes Eldar too lance vulnerable)


As to the simple reroll hits suggestion that someone posted, has anyone done the math on how much defensive value this provides when compared to shields?

[horizon]

The re-roll is quite balanced but misses the range idea.

Your idea... hm right shift with increasing armour... pondering. Does not sound bad but I would rather have a same system for lances & batteries then two different systems.


Admiral, what about the torpedoes then? As it stand the most evil Eldar weapon under official rulings.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Problem with Eldar torps is they are available en masse. My old idea was to make the ship taking them more expensive to balance the evil. Then again, the ships are already expensive as it is. How about Eldar torps do not get a re-roll but do crits on 4+ instead of the normal 6+ when it hits?

I don't really think range is that big a factor to consider. Just re-roll the hits. If it hits, then it really hits. Adding different rules for different ranges will make things unwieldy. I don't want to have to remember too many stuff. If 4+ is too good odds, then make it that against holofields, lances need 5+ to hit.

As for the different armor/saves, again, I do not want to have to remember too many stuff. Try to keep things simple.

[horizon]

Critical hits on a 4+ is an idea worth considering regarding Eldar torps.

To be honest: I still need to look up values on the gunnery table, thus looking up a value with lances values does not seem a problem to me.

The playtesting with mms already makes for fact that I remember the holofield save vs lances with ease (5+ above 30, 6+ between 15-30, none under 15cm).

In that regards I don't think it is highly difficult.

Back to an earlier comment:
if it miss you want it to miss.

In the original msm rules it was 4+ for the lance, then a 2+ save from holo.
mms did the same but a weaker save with range modifier.
now I say Leadership test before the lance shot (followed by no saving throw).

Thus you roll same number of dice and the end effect is the same :

original/mms v19
when lance misses, it misses
when lance hits it can be saved
when lance hits it can be succesfull

Ld idea
when Ld test fails, it cannot shoot
if Leaderships test succeeds, it can hit succesfull
if Leaderships test succeeds, it can miss

Different order same achievement or am I missing a crucial part?

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

I'm already looking up things with the gunnery table. I'd rather not have to add anything else in addition to that. I just feel it's complicating things.

Why not just a 5+ to hit with lances vs holofields with re-rolls on all the hits? Simpler to remember.

[horizon]

Well, I could make a reference sheet with both tables next to each other

Shouldn't you be dissecting the new Space Marine rules the HA is proposing?

lol

thus your idea:
right shift vs batteries
lances hit on 5+
Succesfull hist be re-rolled

That means a lance has following chance to hit:
11%

And a single battery :
11% vs 5+ armour
25% vs 4+ armour

msm was:
50% for battery
8% for lance (followed by another 16% chance if bm was placed).

mms (no holofield under 15cm):
for battery 33% vs 5+ armour (right shift above 15cm + shielding, so more hits needed to do damage.)
for battery 50% vs 4+ armour (right shift above 15cm + shielding, so more hits needed to do damage.)
for lance under 15cm 50%
for lance 15-30cm 41%
for lance above 30cm 33%

MSM is just unbalanced with its battery-lance difference.
MMS is quite balanced and under 15cm Eldar pay for it. At distance quite hard to hit.
Your idea: quite low hit chance with batteries and lances being levelled same effect vs 5+ armour.

[lastspartacus]

Sorry if this is a personal discussion, but you keep saying so many interesting things, and I eat up all things BFG.

Its time I asked, who exactly is this HA?  And what new marine rules are they proposing?

As to the eldar, if I were playing/facing the fleet, I don't think it would be complicated to just remember you have a save/higher armor depending on the type of attack type attacking you. 
However, if thought to be too convoluted, how about this, very similar to the other guy's idea, but tweaked.

Eldar ships go back to standard 4+ armor, base.
While holofields are active:
Eldar ships to not suffer the left column shift when targeted under 15cm.
Eldar ships always benefit from a right gunnery shift when targeted. 
Hitting an Eldar ship, when fired upon, depends on the enemy ship's range.  Beyond 30cm 6+, 15-30 5+, 15> 4+

Lances are still quite useful as they are uneffected by the shift or position of the eldar ship.

I too am not a fan of Leadership based mechanics governing holofield technology, in my humble opinion.

[horizon]

Hi,
HA=High Admirality=BFG rules committee.

In this thread you can see some drafts they have released. At a certain time going official I guess:
http://www.sg.tacticalwargames.net/forum/index.php?topic=1730.0

There are drafts for:
FW Tau (don't like it)
Eldar Haven & refits (okay)
Space Marines (don't like it)
Rogue Traders (sufficient)

The Leadership idea I propose is the sytem being used in the Rogue Trader RPG for holofields. I really like it

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

What else is there to say about SM? Just add another shield to the BB and SC and they're good to go.  

And as for low chances of hitting, without shields, a hit is a devastating hit. It hurts the Eldar more unlike the current rules. They now have to really think about going on BFI which will also hurt them if they do go onto BFI.

[Caine-HoA]

I think vs everything else than lances SCs with 2 shields would be a bit over the top, the already have very goof stats for light cruisers, especially if you compare then to other light cruisers (like endeavour, emissary ...).

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Let's not derail the thread into an SC one.

To answer your points though, just another shield to help them be more survivable is enough to fix the SM fleet. Add 5 points to the cost if need be and reduce the TH they have to 1. I can never figure out how a small ship can carry almost as much THs as a battleship. Yes, they are in a sense the best light cruisers in the Imperial arsenal. But then again, the SM are marginalized by having no regular cruisers. Adding the shields would make them tough and yet they still won't be able to take on regular line cruisers with ease. 2 shields can still be taken down and being crippled by 3 hits is no small matter. Lances are still their bane but even WBs can get in the 6s. Their weapons loadout is ok. They don't have an easy time focusing even if they're in a squadron. WBs still won't mesh with BCs well.

The SCs main problem since the beginning has been survivability. I would think that with the handful of Marines per Chapter that the Imperium would load them on the hardiest ship they can give them without being an antiship unit.

Anyway back to the Eldar discussion.