If you could make an Imperial ship legal, which one(s) would it be?

[lastspartacus]

+1 turret is a great idea.  No increase, just very limited carriers.  It makes perfect sense.

[BaronIveagh]

+1 turret is a great idea.  No increase, just very limited carriers.  It makes perfect sense.

Makes sense but isn't very effective though.  It means that most cruisers will still only have three turrets.  For keeping thawks from wiping out your escorts it would be good, since you could give escorts 6 turrets at that point.  For cruisers though it means that unless you keep huddling your escorts with them in b2b contact, they're still up a creek. 

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

+1 turret is a great idea.  No increase, just very limited carriers.  It makes perfect sense.

Makes sense but isn't very effective though.  It means that most cruisers will still only have three turrets.  For keeping thawks from wiping out your escorts it would be good, since you could give escorts 6 turrets at that point.  For cruisers though it means that unless you keep huddling your escorts with them in b2b contact, they're still up a creek. 

And this is a problem because?

[Vaaish]

Yeah, but how did they transform the raw ingot into a finished product?  And if the planet was feral, how did they build the ship there in the first place?  Feral worlds arn't exactly known for thier shipyards.  And how did savages produce that much?  Pre-industrial mining only produced a few thousand tonnes of metal per year.  Even weird supermines like the gigantic strip mines of Sephris Secondus only produce 'billions' of tonnes of ore according to fluff.

It isn't detailed so it could be any number of methods that are pointless to speculate on. What's important is that it took 11 years in a feral world to bet one built.

The trick is to have the ships doing the boosting shielded by the ships getting boosted.  Remember that AC have to attack the first ship they come into B2B contact with

And you better believe that as soon as that first group of AC pulls the FDT into the attack, any other group is going to try as hard as possible to make sure the first base they hit is the one that doesn't have the turrets helping.

[Sigoroth]

I like the extra turret idea. I would simply let BF Bakka buy up to +1 turret per ship at +5 pts each. +1 turret is plenty big protection against AC. And no, Bakka should not be immune to AC as BI implies. They have access to some carriers, as well as reserves. It's enough.

[lastspartacus]

Id give it for free, with extreme ordnance limits.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Not free since one can take Bakka ships as reserves.

[BaronIveagh]

And this is a problem because?

Well, if you like seeing your cruisers blown away by AC while they use guns to chew up your escorts, it's no problem at all.

And you better believe that as soon as that first group of AC pulls the FDT into the attack, any other group is going to try as hard as possible to make sure the first base they hit is the one that doesn't have the turrets helping.

You don't have to give every turret you have to the target.  Squadron your ships in base to base contact, with frigs in b2b contact with ships like grand cruisers or battleships.  Make sure to manuver so that nearby squadrons can keep supporting fire on one another.  

This effectively gives most BBs 8 or 9 turrets, most cruisers at least 6 as long as you keep in wedge formations and don't AAF.  Keep squadrons within 15 cm of each other so the squadron on either side can support if needed.  If you're depending on FDT, the only SO's you should ever use are LO, RO, and BFI.  Move forward in wedges and you'll steam roller ord dependent fleets.

Not free since one can take Bakka ships as reserves.

I'd give them it free too.  If the whole fleet isn't using them, it gets pretty diluted as anyone who's had an admech ship with them can tell you, so as reserves they really don't have the big impact you might think they would.

[Sigoroth]

BI, you're not ever supposed to be immune to ordnance. If you don't like AC, then ban it from your games, don't try to make a gunfleet not have to worry about AC at all.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

And this is a problem because?

Well, if you like seeing your cruisers blown away by AC while they use guns to chew up your escorts, it's no problem at all.

Not free since one can take Bakka ships as reserves.

I'd give them it free too.  If the whole fleet isn't using them, it gets pretty diluted as anyone who's had an admech ship with them can tell you, so as reserves they really don't have the big impact you might think they would.

As Sig points out, they shouldn't be immune. Giving them +1 turret for minimal points, not free, should be enough balance. It will be a big impact. For the price of an Escort, assuming at 5 points, that's 5-6 ships that will get an additional 1 turret each. Now how can that be not a big impact?

[Vaaish]

I like the extra turret, but I think it needs to be part of the standard profile and pointed as appropriate in order for it to be taken. Bakka is supposed to be low AC and making added turret standard helps bludgeon people in that direction.

You don't have to give every turret you have to the target.  Squadron your ships in base to base contact, with frigs in b2b contact with ships like grand cruisers or battleships.  Make sure to manuver so that nearby squadrons can keep supporting fire on one another. 

Doesn't that slightly defeat the purpose of the FDT as it currently is though? It's supposed to be helping ships within 15cm to give the effect of B2b without needing to be in base to base so you can boost your AC defenses where needed. It's a bad rule if you pay points for something you could already accomplish better with the existing turret massing rules. Limiting the turrets to one designated ship per turn means that the 15cm "range" is unnecessary since you will mass turrets anyway and at that point why are you paying for the turret anyway? It needs the restriction on a single designated ship removed if the HA keeps on with the current rule.

[BaronIveagh]

BI, you're not ever supposed to be immune to ordnance. If you don't like AC, then ban it from your games, don't try to make a gunfleet not have to worry about AC at all.

Sig, what would you suggest?  Adding turrets causes the exact same problem thanks to the turret massing rules.  Adding a bonus to WB to hit ord would be next to useless if the launching ship just closes to 20 or 30 cm, depending on what it's using.  Adding the Jovian seems to inspire fanrage the likes of which I haven't seen outside the Marvel Forums when Spiderman sold his marriage to Mephisto.  If the Mars got a bonus to fighters on CAP, again, we run into the problem if it being reserved into other fleets.  

As Sig points out, they shouldn't be immune. Giving them +1 turret for minimal points, not free, should be enough balance. It will be a big impact. For the price of an Escort, assuming at 5 points, that's 5-6 ships that will get an additional 1 turret each. Now how can that be not a big impact?

What's immunity to Bombers worth?  Give any IN cruiser +1 turret and mass turrets and it's immune.  Make it so they can't mass turrets and you end up with dead escorts.

Doesn't that slightly defeat the purpose of the FDT as it currently is though? It's supposed to be helping ships within 15cm to give the effect of B2b without needing to be in base to base so you can boost your AC defenses where needed. It's a bad rule if you pay points for something you could already accomplish better with the existing turret massing rules. Limiting the turrets to one designated ship per turn means that the 15cm "range" is unnecessary since you will mass turrets anyway and at that point why are you paying for the turret anyway? It needs the restriction on a single designated ship removed if the HA keeps on with the current rule.

Vaaish, I think you missed what I was doing.  I was massing turrets and THEN applying the bonus from FDT on top THAT that bonus.  As a very extreme example, Dominus Astra would be the target, that would be 12 turrets if it was massing with three frigs, assuming that it got the entire FDT bonus.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

As Sig points out, they shouldn't be immune. Giving them +1 turret for minimal points, not free, should be enough balance. It will be a big impact. For the price of an Escort, assuming at 5 points, that's 5-6 ships that will get an additional 1 turret each. Now how can that be not a big impact?

What's immunity to Bombers worth?  Give any IN cruiser +1 turret and mass turrets and it's immune.  Make it so they can't mass turrets and you end up with dead escorts.

Massing turrets does not make the cruiser immune. It gives them additional attacks against AC counters but when it comes to the bombers attacking the ships, it still defaults to the turrets on the target ship. That doesn't make them immune.

[Plaxor]

^what artagnan said.

[BaronIveagh]

^what artagnan said.

I was about to say something witty, but then an idea occurred to me: You know, this fleet has nearly nothing to stop turret suppression and is also vulnerable to torp bombers, and nothing we've really discussed will do anything about that.