If you could make an Imperial ship legal, which one(s) would it be?

[BaronIveagh]

Sig, I'm quite familiar with ToT (and that a projectile would take about 3 hours to travel that distance with a 1.1kmps muzzle velocity).  I'm also familiar that macrocannon projectiles travel um, 60,000km in one combat turn, and bombers about 20,000km.  I would suggest that a bomber is much slower then a bullet.  So how much time is a single round of combat really? 

Given the listed speed for a Fury interceptor is 2,500kph, and they move 20,000km, this means that a combat turn's real time is approx 8 hours.

Well, the approximation given is that one game turn represents one hour. Regardless, it obviously does not take this amount of time for the shot to reach the target. Predicting where the target will be with any degree of precision minutes ahead of time is unlikely. More likely requiring seconds at the most.

Further, bombers are not exactly known for being slippery targets.  Particularity when they're as large as a 747 like the Starhhawk is.  The bigger it is, the more inertia it has, and the more sudden changes in direction put stress on your fuselage, since thrust stresses are not even across the bird.  If you were to try and jink in something like this, the stresses would snap your bird like a twig.

This makes sense when they're flying at top speed on their way to the target, however, once there they will have to slow down to line up attack runs and attempt to avoid flak fire, making them far more manoeuvrable by necessity. This is the time when the FDTs are trying to shoot them. When they're at their most manoeuvrable, right next to a friendly target and possibly hidden by it. And they're using weaponry powerful enough to reach this far in a timely fashion enough fashion, but not powerful enough to hurt the friendly target nor so powerful as to even cost the firing ship a single point of its main guns firepower. On top of all this, this weaponry is somehow 3 times more accurate (while taking less than 1 third the firepower).

Face it, it's a bad rule. In order to do this sort of thing it makes much more sense to use main guns, and giving Bakka ships some special rule when doing so is fine. FDTs just suck balls though.

Main guns would have even poorer tracking then smaller more quickly maneuverable weapons.  The simplest approach would be to fire cans of frozen peas at them.  (This sounds insane but bear with me for a moment.) The reason is that the peas would easily hole a lightly armored bomber or fighter, but would impact harmlessly on the meters thick armor of a larger starship.  For any doubts on this:



This is the damage inflicted on a shuttle orbiter by a paint chip. 

According to NASA, a 1 cm aluminum sphere deals comparable damage to a 400 pound safe traveling at 60mph.  This would probably wreck a Fury or Starhawk, but have little impact on the armor of a ship. 

[Plaxor]

What I think would be interesting and logical from baronI would be that fdts place a bm on all pieces of ordinance within 15cm. Say they are launching a flak field of minor projectiles at the ordinance.

This would make sense from a defensive standpoint, although not very effective it is gamplay and scientifically sensible.

[BaronIveagh]

What I think would be interesting and logical from baronI would be that fdts place a bm on all pieces of ordinance within 15cm. Say they are launching a flak field of minor projectiles at the ordinance.

This would make sense from a defensive standpoint, although not very effective it is gamplay and scientifically sensible.

Hmm... that's not bad, but there'd have to be some sort of special rule to make them vanish except on +4 or better.  Nate has mentioned in the past they're not interested in making lots of new complicated rules.  Personally, I say we just go with the existing rule, rename it FDS, Fleet Defense System, and say that the increase in turrets represents greater co-ordination between the fleet's CIWS systems creating a tighter fire screen around the selected ship.  The fact it can only work on one target per turn is due to signal lag between ships.


To pour a little promethium on the fire with AC: the Tempest strike frigate of the Calixis Sector is, if you read it's description, a frigate aboat carrier peculiar to Calixis, Ixnaid, Mandragora, and Scarus sectors.  Scarus also being a bastion fleet.

[Plaxor]

No I'm saying that it doesn't need to be that complicated. It would be by no means good, but it would fulfill the role. Not only that but as BMs it would destroy entire waves Or salvoes making it better than fdts in a way. I think it's a decent enough representation of the rule.

I would give it to every capital in the list. Only one bm can be placed per ordinance marker.

[BaronIveagh]

No I'm saying that it doesn't need to be that complicated. It would be by no means good, but it would fulfill the role. Not only that but as BMs it would destroy entire waves Or salvoes making it better than fdts in a way. I think it's a decent enough representation of the rule.

I would give it to every capital in the list. Only one bm can be placed per ordinance marker.

HHmmm... somehow this feels like it would be abusable against WB based fleets, particularly if you are lance heavy...  it's also be possible to penalize ships for having fighters on CAP.

[Sigoroth]

I'm sure that the speed required to get those peas there in a timely fashion would make them a threat to the friendly ship.

Anyway, what's wrong with the Dominion? It's perfectly fine. Consider a balanced Dictator (210 pts) with a Lunar. It swaps out half its firepower for 4 AC at +30 pts. Now compare the Dominion to a balanced Armageddon (235 pts tops). Again we're swapping half firepower, this time for only 25 pts, however we're losing 45cm range guns this time, instead of 30cm range. This suggests that the Dominion is actually 5 pts overpriced.

Breakdown:

Armageddon = Lunar (180) + dorsal lances/CB status (+30) + WB range (+10) + lance range (+15) = 235

Dictator (210) - Lunar (180) = 30. Therefore 4AC = 6WB@30cm+30pts

Since 6WB@45cm = +10 pts, 4AC = 6WB@45cm+20pts

Therefore Dominion should cost Armageddon +20 pts (255).

Convergent evidence:

Dictator (210) + dorsal lances/CB status (+30) + lance range (+15) = 255 pts

Criticism:

Current Dictator is 220, Armageddon is 245 (though 235 for Bakka  )

Rebutal:

These ships are both overpriced. The Armageddon was originally 235 pts and there was no problem with them. Their price increase was completely unexpected and uncalled for. The Dictator has always been overpriced. Even with the Dev reduced to 45cm the Dictator is overpriced. New ships should not be made nerfed to keep parity with unbalanced ships, so while they may currently be 10 pts overpriced, we should be using balanced ships in comparisons.

The price of the Dominion, assuming the Armageddon and Dictator are priced accurately (which they certainly are not), is 270 pts. Armageddon = Lunar (180) + CB (30) + WB range (+15!?) + lance range (+20!?) = 245. 4AC = 6WB@30cm +40 pts (Lunar vs Dictator), 6WB@45cm=+15pts, therefore 4AC = 6WB@45cm +25 pts, therefore Dominion = Armageddon (245) + 25 = 270. However, there are some problems with this valuation of the range upgrades, since the Tyrant establishes +15cm range (from 30cm to 45cm) for 6WBs is +10 pts. This is for an optional upgrade, not a forced one, which should be cheaper. I would much much prefer an Armageddon with 30cm range broadsides for 210 pts, that's for sure.

Therefore, given the established and extrapolated costs of optional range upgrades and the fact that forced range upgrades are worth less the Armageddon tops out at 235 pts maximum. There really is no justification for costing it higher, though it is plausible that it could cost less since you are forced to take the range upgrades.

If you take the Dictator to be priced correctly (wot?) but agree the Armageddon is too costly from the above then the Dominion comes in at 265 pts. So since any reasonable analysis puts it in the 255 to 265 pt range there's nothing wrong with its 260 pt price tag.

Note: I omitted the turret difference between Lunar/Dictator and Armageddon/Dominion, since they cancel out and it's simplifies the analysis somewhat. However, extrapolating to other situations using this valuation should keep it in mind. So if you believe the Dictator should be 210 pts then 4AC +1 turret = 6WB@30cm +30 pts.

[Plaxor]

Sig, the dominion is 250 In BoN.

Baron, I don't think there is so much room for abuse, as the turrets are only 15cm range, and it is quite difficult to put your ships within 15. Although, it would make your opponent not want to cap fighters, which he wouldn't really do anyway, as bakka is very lacking in offensive ordinance.

I would suggest that my invention wouldn't work whilst on aaf, bfi, crippled, ctnh, or br orders. At the very least aaf, as the tracking systems aren't that fast/it would prevent abuse.

Everything new besides the viper either lacks torps or has a lower than normal number of them, also this list has a high number of nc vessels or other vessels with low torp count.  so I don't think enemy ordinance would really be playing the defensive game.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Why would the Despoiler be fresh in anyone's mind?  According to the fluff for the Gaerox Incident, the Inquisition covered the entire thing up afterwards, so only the members of high command at Bakka and the Inquisition would know what went on.  (which is why the more or less lack of AC is considered an aberration by IN standards) What little fluff we have to go on for other sectors occasionally mentions pure carriers in the employ of IN.

AM would also know and they're the ones who build the ships. Sorry, won't fly. What fluff? Show me. Haven't seen any fluff, no matter how little, about pure carriers in the employ of IN.

[Sigoroth]

Sig, the dominion is 250 In BoN.

The BoN I'm looking at says 260 pts. Also, from both yours and BI's comments (quoted below) you both seem to be talking about a 260 pt Dominion, as you say +25 pts over 'flawed ships' Armageddon (which is 235) giving 260, and he responds that his +15 pts was compared to the official Armageddon (245) which is again 260 pts.

BaronI, in 'flawed ships' the Dominion isn't a +15 point upgrade for the Armageddon, it's +25. Remember the armageddon got reduced 10 points, and in the case of how I would represent it, it would have only 4 torps, to fit with BFT. Making this more like 30, a reasonable (albeit still low) price for 4lb.

I was using it's official stats rather then the 'flawed ships' stats.  and even at 30 it's damn cheap.  2 escort carriers cost 120.

[Plaxor]

Oops, my bad sig. Don't know where I got that in my head.

As another thought for my fdt idea, to prevent abuse you could say that they are fired at the end of the shooting phase.

[BaronIveagh]

Why would the Despoiler be fresh in anyone's mind?  According to the fluff for the Gaerox Incident, the Inquisition covered the entire thing up afterwards, so only the members of high command at Bakka and the Inquisition would know what went on.  (which is why the more or less lack of AC is considered an aberration by IN standards) What little fluff we have to go on for other sectors occasionally mentions pure carriers in the employ of IN.

AM would also know and they're the ones who build the ships. Sorry, won't fly. What fluff? Show me. Haven't seen any fluff, no matter how little, about pure carriers in the employ of IN.

*sigh*

Ark Imperial a Majestic Class, battleship sized super carrier, Shadow Point, chapter 9. 

Tempest class strike frigate, Rogue Trader corebook, Page 195 (fluff lists one of it's configurations as an aboat carrier)

Defiant class light cruiser, Armada, page 19. 

Those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head.  I'm certain that there are other vague-er references to carriers in other books, but those were the ones that I remember the class being named.

[Plaxor]

Tempest is a modified sword with a launch bay, that is often equipped with assault boats. See my post a page ago.

I'm Actually confused as to why the emperor is not on the fleet carrier list. Is it something with launch bays and little or no weapons?

[BaronIveagh]

Tempest is a modified sword with a launch bay, that is often equipped with assault boats. See my post a page ago.

I'm Actually confused as to why the emperor is not on the fleet carrier list. Is it something with launch bays and little or no weapons?

I was being nice and not pointing out the obvious?  Though I suspect that the Emp has too many guns for D'Art to consider it a 'pure' carrier.

[horizon]

Hi BaronI,
your Eldar MMS comment... that Eldar player needs to check back in. Let him mail me. And I am puzzled you don't know MMS yourselves.

Ayway, Armageddon is 235 points in FAQ2010 (yay me ).
Dominion is 260 in new BoN.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

*sigh*

Ark Imperial a Majestic Class, battleship sized super carrier, Shadow Point, chapter 9.  

Tempest class strike frigate, Rogue Trader corebook, Page 195 (fluff lists one of it's configurations as an aboat carrier)

Defiant class light cruiser, Armada, page 19.  

Those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head.  I'm certain that there are other vague-er references to carriers in other books, but those were the ones that I remember the class being named.

And you also notice the Majestic is one of those really old ships out there? Which is so old its warp engines are about to fall apart. Old, rare and not in use anymore in combat other than as a base of operations.

Defiant still has weapons and not a pure carrier. I don't know about the stats of the Tempest though even if it were a pure carrier, it would mainly be categorized as an escort carrier. You want those escort carriers? Sure, take em.

I was being nice and not pointing out the obvious?  Though I suspect that the Emp has too many guns for D'Art to consider it a 'pure' carrier.

DING!DING!DING!DING!DING!DING!DING!DING!DING! Give the man a lollipop.  Yes, Emperor is not a pure carrier, not the way the unofficial Nemesis or the official Styx would be. So sorry you've still struck out. Still no proof of a pure carrier for me.