If you could make an Imperial ship legal, which one(s) would it be?

[RCgothic]

Low AC still works. Exhibit A: 1 Falchion/Cobra and 5 Vipers. That's up to 15 torps delivered THROUGH a CAP onto a single target. Target annihilated.

FDT aren't needed or wanted.

[Vaaish]

I'm not talking about offensively; with the amount of torpedoes available offensive operations aren't even a question. I'm talking about enemy AB and Bombers. IN without Ac or with low AC isn't all that great because most of your stuff has either 1 or 2 turrets and even with turret massing you will eventually get picked apart. FDT or some such mechanism is needed to counterbalance the loss or severe reduction of defensive ordnance.

[Valhallan]

exactly vaaish. hence the need for defiant/enforcer whether fdt's or not.

however, its really too bad people are against the theory behind fdts cuz its really quite a badass concept. putting your turrets where you need them most at any given point.

as written (or as i read it last night) the fdt's reduce bomber attacks. thus they whoop vs bombers. a-boats and massed torps however still provide a problem. either keep FDT and allow access to CL's with LB's or replace the mechanic with the new proposition of 15cm weapons that hit ordy on 4+. though this would make the profiles of the ships very convoluted (in comparison to the norm).

as to placing BMs for guns that could counter AC... we don't place BM's when we direct fire at ord normally, so why - in this standardized abstraction - should we place bm for fdt's?

if fluffiness is the only real counter to fdt's then lets just ask that this fleet list which makes use of them cannot reserve into other IN. like no donor, but universal acceptor blood type. we all know that balance is more important that fluff.

Thus I think occams razor makes keeping fdt's the simplest solution. though the fleet should be isolated from reserving off to other IN, period.


and btw, Victory needs 20cm move, cuz if its at 15cm and gets a BM on it, then it can't maneuver that cannon where it wants.

[BaronIveagh]

Low AC still works. Exhibit A: 1 Falchion/Cobra and 5 Vipers. That's up to 15 torps delivered THROUGH a CAP onto a single target. Target annihilated.

FDT aren't needed or wanted.

Maybe my math is off, but no, target probably crippled, since torps have to beat armor.  BTW: Wouldn't a single escort by itself be illegal?

Valhallen, restricting them from going into other fleets is pointless as you can still bring them into another fleet using the admech list.  So if it's unbalanced, it has been for years.

@Nate: btw, I was reading the description of the Havoc, and, this description implies that Havoks are pre-heresy frigates, as the Sword came into service at the beginning of the HH.

[Sigoroth]

I have no objection to some special rule allowing a ships main guns to have an easier time hitting AC. Certainly this sort of thing can be justified. What is implausible is having secondary weaponry powerful enough to do this. And yes BI, it does require power to achieve this in a timely manner. Of course I know that a moving body will keep moving until acted upon by some force. I'm not an idiot. I had, however, assumed that you knew that we're talking a specific time-frame here, as determined by muzzle velocity (ie, power input). Else all projectile weapons would have unlimited range. Also, it's more likely that you'd be able to hit straight flying targets rather than jinking targets and could use the ship you're trying to protect for cover. And yes, BI, they would be able to use it as cover. Bombers are tiny, ships are huge, the two are close together. The shadow the ship will cast is certainly enough to consider cover.

[BaronIveagh]

I have no objection to some special rule allowing a ships main guns to have an easier time hitting AC. Certainly this sort of thing can be justified. What is implausible is having secondary weaponry powerful enough to do this. And yes BI, it does require power to achieve this in a timely manner. Of course I know that a moving body will keep moving until acted upon by some force. I'm not an idiot. I had, however, assumed that you knew that we're talking a specific time-frame here, as determined by muzzle velocity (ie, power input). Else all projectile weapons would have unlimited range. Also, it's more likely that you'd be able to hit straight flying targets rather than jinking targets and could use the ship you're trying to protect for cover. And yes, BI, they would be able to use it as cover. Bombers are tiny, ships are huge, the two are close together. The shadow the ship will cast is certainly enough to consider cover.

Sig, I'm quite familiar with ToT (and that a projectile would take about 3 hours to travel that distance with a 1.1kmps muzzle velocity).  I'm also familiar that macrocannon projectiles travel um, 60,000km in one combat turn, and bombers about 20,000km.  I would suggest that a bomber is much slower then a bullet.  So how much time is a single round of combat really? 

Given the listed speed for a Fury interceptor is 2,500kph, and they move 20,000km, this means that a combat turn's real time is approx 8 hours.

Further, bombers are not exactly known for being slippery targets.  Particularity when they're as large as a 747 like the Starhhawk is.  The bigger it is, the more inertia it has, and the more sudden changes in direction put stress on your fuselage, since thrust stresses are not even across the bird.  If you were to try and jink in something like this, the stresses would snap your bird like a twig.

[lastspartacus]

Why can't we assume that it is improved targeting rather than improved range?

[Plaxor]

The only real reason for range limitations is targeting capability. Sure you can launch a warhead an infinite distance, but the question is will you be able to predict where the ship will be when it hits, and if it has enough time to react and move the 100 meters to get out of the way.

Even if the weapons were travelling at one million kmph, a ship would have almost 2 minutes to move out of the way. Even a few seconds is potentially enough to make a course correction. (presuming that the systems are automated).

Anyways, BFG isn't truly a representation of spaceship battles. It is a little, but it is more WWI/II naval battles. Even some fleets take more after modern fleets (TAU), and others, more ancient fleets (Eldar)

BaronI, in 'flawed ships' the Dominion isn't a +15 point upgrade for the Armageddon, it's +25. Remember the armageddon got reduced 10 points, and in the case of how I would represent it, it would have only 4 torps, to fit with BFT. Making this more like 30, a reasonable (albeit still low) price for 4lb.


The Victory doesn't need 20cm speed for its NC, the Apocalypse has 15cm and it does fine. Besides, if your enemy can shoot at your NC battleship, you're doing it wrong. (or probably couldn't use the NC anyways)

[lastspartacus]

Sounds right, BI.  I always assumed  they were actually very long affairs, because of the distances and ship sizes. 
And indeed, in space, manouverability is much tougher.  You just head for the ship you are making your attack run on, dead ahead.

Edit:  What plaxor said, as far as shooting goes.

[BaronIveagh]

The only real reason for range limitations is targeting capability. Sure you can launch a warhead an infinite distance, but the question is will you be able to predict where the ship will be when it hits, and if it has enough time to react and move the 100 meters to get out of the way.

Even if the weapons were travelling at one million kmph, a ship would have almost 2 minutes to move out of the way. Even a few seconds is potentially enough to make a course correction. (presuming that the systems are automated).

Anyways, BFG isn't truly a representation of spaceship battles. It is a little, but it is more WWI/II naval battles. Even some fleets take more after modern fleets (TAU), and others, more ancient fleets (Eldar)

BaronI, in 'flawed ships' the Dominion isn't a +15 point upgrade for the Armageddon, it's +25. Remember the armageddon got reduced 10 points, and in the case of how I would represent it, it would have only 4 torps, to fit with BFT. Making this more like 30, a reasonable (albeit still low) price for 4lb.


The Victory doesn't need 20cm speed for its NC, the Apocalypse has 15cm and it does fine. Besides, if your enemy can shoot at your NC battleship, you're doing it wrong. (or probably couldn't use the NC anyways)

I was using it's official stats rather then the 'flawed ships' stats.  and even at 30 it's damn cheap.  2 escort carriers cost 120.

Personal opinion: if you're taking the NC at all, you're doing it wrong.  Put her in with gothics and a mars or two and give her guided torps.

[RCgothic]

BTW: Wouldn't a single escort by itself be illegal?

Mixed squadrons are not.

[Plaxor]

Funny, in RT the turns are considered to be 1/2 hour. Seemed about logical to me.

However everyone knows GW doesn't do math when writing fluff! They aren't scientists! I mean they wrote fluff about 30 space wolves JUMPING from thier exploding strike cruiser onto a chaos ship, propelled by the explosion (I don't care how superhuman you are... that is a shit-ton of radiation, enough to break carbon-carbon bonds, destroying you at a molecular level). Not only that but they jumped what? 30,000 km? in a reasonable time frame? so they were travelling at least 250,000 KMPH. Which means they should impact the void shields and be molecularizedulated (my new word ) like a bug on a windshield, times 100,000. Then the 30 space wolves take over the chaos cruiser (what the hell?) and turn the weapons on the chaos fleet around them (who is running the guns if they killed everyone?, a ship must have at least 10-15% of its crew in order to move! JUST MOVE.)

Anyways, cruisers travel at ~40,000 kmph according to FF. Pretty reasonable, most satelites do about 12kmps, or 40,000kmph.

And a bomber goes at 2500 per hour? Wrong. They would need to do 22kmps. Pretty epic.

[Plaxor]

Good point BaronI. I do think that the depressed cost is somewhat sensible due to the slight confusion of roles (is it supposed to shoot, or be a carrier?) Although 260 seems reasonable to me.

Escort carriers are crap.... if they didn't have the LD loss they might not be. I doubt it though. I came up with a design for the Tempest class frigate (and even converted one, yay! which you can see in the modeling thread) Its a firestorm which swaps out the lance for a LB@45pts. Squadrons can upgrade Sharks for +5 points. Maybe overcosted by 5 points. I would love to hear someones thoughts on the subject, but I think we should concentrate on Bakka here.

[BaronIveagh]

Funny, in RT the turns are considered to be 1/2 hour. Seemed about logical to me.

However everyone knows GW doesn't do math when writing fluff! They aren't scientists! I mean they wrote fluff about 30 space wolves JUMPING from thier exploding strike cruiser onto a chaos ship, propelled by the explosion (I don't care how superhuman you are... that is a shit-ton of radiation, enough to break carbon-carbon bonds, destroying you at a molecular level). Not only that but they jumped what? 30,000 km? in a reasonable time frame? so they were travelling at least 250,000 KMPH. Which means they should impact the void shields and be molecularizedulated (my new word ) like a bug on a windshield, times 100,000. Then the 30 space wolves take over the chaos cruiser (what the hell?) and turn the weapons on the chaos fleet around them (who is running the guns if they killed everyone?, a ship must have at least 10-15% of its crew in order to move! JUST MOVE.)

Anyways, cruisers travel at ~40,000 kmph according to FF. Pretty reasonable, most satelites do about 12kmps, or 40,000kmph.

And a bomber goes at 2500 per hour? Wrong. They would need to do 22kmps. Pretty epic.

FFG wrote the 2,500kmph thing in Into the Storm.  Sorry, can't lay this one on GW.  However, I'll also point out that it this is true, the 10vus in 1/2 hour for a fury means that a Sword's combat speed is only 2000 kmph (baseline) according to it's in game stats.  Cruisers even slower.  None of them are going any 40k kmph if the movement scale is right.

[Sigoroth]

Sig, I'm quite familiar with ToT (and that a projectile would take about 3 hours to travel that distance with a 1.1kmps muzzle velocity).  I'm also familiar that macrocannon projectiles travel um, 60,000km in one combat turn, and bombers about 20,000km.  I would suggest that a bomber is much slower then a bullet.  So how much time is a single round of combat really? 

Given the listed speed for a Fury interceptor is 2,500kph, and they move 20,000km, this means that a combat turn's real time is approx 8 hours.

Well, the approximation given is that one game turn represents one hour. Regardless, it obviously does not take this amount of time for the shot to reach the target. Predicting where the target will be with any degree of precision minutes ahead of time is unlikely. More likely requiring seconds at the most.

Further, bombers are not exactly known for being slippery targets.  Particularity when they're as large as a 747 like the Starhhawk is.  The bigger it is, the more inertia it has, and the more sudden changes in direction put stress on your fuselage, since thrust stresses are not even across the bird.  If you were to try and jink in something like this, the stresses would snap your bird like a twig.

This makes sense when they're flying at top speed on their way to the target, however, once there they will have to slow down to line up attack runs and attempt to avoid flak fire, making them far more manoeuvrable by necessity. This is the time when the FDTs are trying to shoot them. When they're at their most manoeuvrable, right next to a friendly target and possibly hidden by it. And they're using weaponry powerful enough to reach this far in a timely fashion enough fashion, but not powerful enough to hurt the friendly target nor so powerful as to even cost the firing ship a single point of its main guns firepower. On top of all this, this weaponry is somehow 3 times more accurate (while taking less than 1 third the firepower).

Face it, it's a bad rule. In order to do this sort of thing it makes much more sense to use main guns, and giving Bakka ships some special rule when doing so is fine. FDTs just suck balls though.