If you could make an Imperial ship legal, which one(s) would it be?

[Eldanesh]

1. Well no, the whole Battlefleet Bakka stuff is old AFAIK it has been in an old BFG Mag issue, along with the rules.

2. You didn't write anything about easier access of of CG's. One CG for every cruiser or what do you have in mind?

3. Even with the new rules using CG's is no advantage. Just not such a big disadvantage as it was before. They have still too much tactical flaws compared to battlecruisers as well as being somewhat overpriced.

4. NC Spam. Compared to Chaos the IN has roughtly 1 cruiser less on the field per 1500 points. And these cruisers are even inferior on a 1 on 1 ratio. The chance of crippling one cruiser by pure luck is one of the few real options for a IN to just even the odds before it goes to bloody "infight" at < 30cm. And it comes with disadvantages: you have less torps and usually you pay more compared to torpedo loadout. In fact the average damage of torpedos is usually even higher than that of an NC, due to the shield ignoring nature of torps. If someone really has a problem with NC spam under the current rules (I don't talk about the old "only 1D6 Scatter ever" rules) I see only 3 possible Options:
a) he isn't able to do the math
b) there is too less/none terrain on the field
c) he is an inapt tactican.
And additionaly he does not see the options of other fleet lists. As I said: a powergamer would not play IN. It's like playing Necrons, Tau or sisters of battle in 40k. The IN simply isn't at the upper end of the food chain in BFG, even with NC spam.

[flybywire-E2C]

Hey nate.

Just becuase they are the 'best of' does NOT mean they should be in the game.  The real 'best of''s made it into armada because they held a monocre of sense and balance without blowing the other fleets out of the water... or just didn't capsize the whole idea of an imperial fleet. 

This list CLEARLY violates several statements in it's OWN fluff! The ability to take an emperor (which we all know is a huge "WTF" when you insist on a low-carrier setup.  Also, this fleet is begging for "nova cannon spam" up the wazoo with unlimited mars and dominator ships.

Nate, your great, but have a look at the fleet list I suggested, and maybe we can prevent this fleet from being a disaster

Great points made here. Like I said, this is only v1.0 so the document comes with a lot of wrinkles, bad creases, occasional potholes, etc.

By design intent Grand Cruisers are specifically a product of Cypra Mundi and aren't even very common in Segmentum Obscurus fleets. We can't make grand cruisers a primary part of Bakka fleets, though they can of course be reserves normally.

The "one of" Emperor is kind of the cornerstone of the whole fluff, but it is certainly true that in most games a "one of" battleship will end up being the Emperor so we will have to revisit this. While I don't mind if 1.1 ends up looking significantly different from 1.0, I am a bit disappointed about how different this will end up looking from the 2002 Annual.

More to follow.

[flybywire-E2C]

Addressing specifically concerns about NC spam, there is nothing now from preventing a player from taking nothig but Mars and Dominator ships so Battlefleet Bakka is not "broken" for allowing this as well.

I REALLY like the idea of the Jovian being a reserve vessel in Battlefleet Bakka, which recycles the Bastion Fleets rule of not being able to take a reserve of a reserve. I can also see Emperor BB's only being available as reserves unless Admiral Rath leads the fleet. I will have to crunch this more, but not tonight.

It goes without saying the Mercury needs some tweaking. How about 20cm speed and 10x60cm batteries, still keeping the pops-with-a-bang characteristic? Once again this will need some playtesting before it is dug into much further, but you can only cram so much into an Imp BC hull before it starts becoming a hack job, which we need to avoid.

Once again, the ships that don't seem so great are done so ON PURPOSE. the Siluria feels like junk because it’s supposed to be junk- it’s an old CL that has long ago been superseded by better ships but Bakka keeps them around because they need the hulls. Not everything new necessarily needs to be shiny! The Imperial fleet is sorely lacking in cheap ships, but by default cheap ships will not be anywhere as capable as their more shiny cousins.

The Spacefleet Tyrant is a great model for the Siluria, but we can’t call the model out by name because you can’t get them anywhere anymore (even eBay’s been tapped out of these for quite some time!).

I’m going to bed…

[Zelnik]

Alright... then lets make a cypra mundi fleet!  The imperial gc hull is such a pretty model and really needs a fleet to spotlight it.

Eldanesh: the fleet i am proposing will have access to all of the vessels that use the imperial gc hull, where in other fleets they are difficult to access.  Also, making room for the Governor which is a tried and tested vessel, and new varients for the hull that we can come up with.

Nate: hey i like the idea of the siluria.
giving the mercury 10  wb at 60 makes it effectively an upgraded overlord. What this fleet really suffers from is "every bit of the kit" fever.  You see people appear with ships like the jovian or the mercury and say "where are the rules for this?"   
It breaks my heart to tell em there are no rules and they made a dud cruiser (espcially in the case of the jovian).  This situation, while sad, does not warrent making new rules.   

[Eldanesh]

the fleet i am proposing will have access to all of the vessels that use the imperial gc hull, where in other fleets they are difficult to access.  Also, making room for the Governor which is a tried and tested vessel, and new varients for the hull that we can come up with.

As I said before: this is simply not an attractive option. There is absoluty no reason why anyone should choose this list over any other.
The both "chaotic" GC's aren't very appealing. De facto it would end with 2 Exorcists, simply because the game mechanics force you to use some carriers, because all the avaible basic cruisers rely on Torpedos and without some flyers to "clear the way" you'll hardly get a Torpedo wave into the target.
And there are still the mentioned disadvantages of CG's: they are robust, but undergunned and they miss the 6+ prow of imperial cruisers. In a fleet context this makes the 6+ dispensable, as the enemy can simply shoot on the CG's. This wouldn't be a big problem if you could squadron them with regular cruisers, so that you can deny direct fire on them, but well...you can not squadron them with cruisers. This is another point: even if most people here dislike Squadrons of capital ships it is a nice option to have, just in case there are too much low LD values: a squadron of a Lunar or Gothic with an Armageddon does not lose much, as well as a Mars/Dominator (or upgraded Lunar) combination can be a good idea sometimes... a CG list doesn't have this options.

face it, there is a reason that you hardly face CG's in an imperial fleet: they are crap. Imperial regular cruisers as well as CG's are substandard, so why on earth would anybody use a list which lacks almost all higher-than-average ships (Emperor, Dauntless, Mars, Dominator and with some distance Armageddon) without a positive trade of. OK, the governor is a well rounded ship I'd like to have in my fleet, but that's all...

[Zelnik]

Or retaliators. Or maybe you can take a pair of dictators and throw in a pair of executions or avengers.

I made a competative 1500 point fleet out of segmentum solar, using 4 endeavor light cruisers (or two endeavors and two endurance's), 2 mars battle cruisers and 2 avenger GC's.

Again: viewing them as 'crap' is your opinion.

I can see merit to taking either the retaliator or the exorcist, they are both legitimate carrier options in a fleet where both are accessible.

[Eldanesh]

Again: viewing them as 'crap' is your opinion.

Ok than show me someone who really plays them except for "Style" reasons...

Or maybe you can take a pair of dictators

You list suggesgtion has no dictarors in it...

I made a competative 1500 point fleet out of segmentum solar, using 4 endeavor light cruisers (or two endeavors and two endurance's), 2 mars battle cruisers and 2 avenger GC's.

This tournament list for Adepticon? Please tell us how it went when you are finished
But to be honest I won't bet any money on this list

But also this is no argument for your list proposal: Solar list has a clear advantage: more BC's / CG's tan a rgular list. Your proposal does not have something like this. A list where CG's are completly unrestriced - well, this could be something where I could consider not having an Emperor or any BC's...

[Vaaish]

And why the hell is everybody afraid with NC spam? Under current rules NC are teethless tigers, only real dangerous in their shortest distance from 30 to 45cm.

Not afraid of it, but with the HA opinion on the NC, I felt it should be pointed out that they just created the ultimate NC fleet list.

3. Even with the new rules using CG's is no advantage. Just not such a big disadvantage as it was before. They have still too much tactical flaws compared to battlecruisers as well as being somewhat overpriced.

This is blatantly false. Have you even used one outside of theoryhammer? The vengeance is one of the best gunships an IN fleet can take with the price it has and if you think that they are flawed tactically, perhaps it's just your tactics that are flawed. I use two in my fleet regularly and have always found them to be a far greater tactical asset than any of the other battlecruisers. The three turrets and three shields plus the extra hits while keeping all the maneuverability of a regular cruiser makes them an very versatile resource. The only other ship I put in a battlecruiser slot with any regularity is the Armageddon when I want a nice ranged lance boat. You hardly face CG in IN fleets because the models are expensive and most people aren't fond of the look.

Nate:

I REALLY like the idea of the Jovian being a reserve vessel in Battlefleet Bakka, which recycles the Bastion Fleets rule of not being able to take a reserve of a reserve. I can also see Emperor BB's only being available as reserves unless Admiral Rath leads the fleet. I will have to crunch this more, but not tonight.

I think these two ideas have merit.

It goes without saying the Mercury needs some tweaking. How about 20cm speed and 10x60cm batteries, still keeping the pops-with-a-bang characteristic? Once again this will need some playtesting before it is dug into much further, but you can only cram so much into an Imp BC hull before it starts becoming a hack job, which we need to avoid.

I think this is the exact OPPOSITE direction this ship needs to go. 25cm speed on an IN cruiser is what makes it unique and interesting. Dropping it to 20cm just makes it an overlord that takes a NC rather than a targeting array and costs far more to boot. I really think you need to drop the NC and either give it 45cm prow WB to boost the battery strength or torpedoes. Keeping the speed and heavy weapons load out goes with the fluff of having a battleship level power generation capability in a cruiser frame. Making it slower and basically the same as the pre-FAQ overlord makes for a "huh, what?" for why it has such a big explosive capability.

The Spacefleet Tyrant is a great model for the Siluria, but we can’t call the model out by name because you can’t get them anywhere anymore (even eBay’s been tapped out of these for quite some time!).

On the Siluria, I think that 90 points could be a reasonably attractive value for them. It gives you two for 180 points which is the same cost as a lunar. That lets you build a fleet around these and battlecruisers and escorts that gives you numbers on the field which the IN doesn't typically have access to and might be a good place for the ship.

[Xyon]

Any other Dr Who fans notice the "hammer of scaro" (skaro, scaro, pretty much the same thing) ?

[horizon]

Grand Cruisers are cool & good. Especially Excorcist & Vengeance.

[Zelnik]

Grand cruisers require different tactics then normal imperial cruisers. I want to enjoy this in a proper fleet based manner.

[BaronIveagh]

I just saw that bakka was being made official.  Now let me have my fanboyish 'HUZZAH!' and wonder where the Huud and Long Serpent are?  LS is perfect for the GW 'We need them to buy more kits' philosophy. 

[lastspartacus]

Neat.

[Zelnik]

I am torn on that philosophy.  I would rather buy lots of kits and make ships that we know work, instead of "lets make every possible combo and screw balance and stability"


It's how 40k went from being a fun game to play, to a game where you throw dice at each other and swear a lot because either "my 70 dollar mini just exploded round one" or "My army has not been updated in a decade and cannot compete"

[horizon]

Hi,

Bakka:

Lord Admiral Rath, what Ld?

Victory Battleship: prow torpedoes please. As original Cold Passage iirc.

Vanquisher: BB without a dorsal? With a broadside value at 30cm of 18 eqv wb. I'll never take this one. :/
It also contradicts the reason you gave me for not giving the Oberon a range upgrade....

Mercury CB: special rule: like the IN wants 25cm odd cruisers...    It is an essence a battlecruiser of the Tyrant.  Tyrant with range upgrade + NC = 215pts.
Thus now we pay 45 points for 2 dorsal lances (=30pts), 15cm extra range on some batteries (=15pts) and a special rule with a pro and con. The con exceeding the pro.

But the Tyrant is overcosted in itself, the 25cm speed isn't needed thus the special rule a downfall. Thus the Mercury should be 250pts top. As a CB it is already restricted.

Jovian = go away with this rubbish ship.

Siluria = much better then the Voss ones. The voss ones still need 6+ prows and 90*. The Siluria has not the kinda wasted 2torps. Can focus fp on a 25cm / 90* hull. Competition for the Dauntless.... to be honest it is better then the Dauntless. Dauntless must choose strong prow weaponry or weak abeam. Prow on it is vulnerable. The Siluria can str2 lance / str 6 = like str4 lance with an abeam presence.
Point increase needed to equal Dauntless.

Havoc & Viper are cool.

Fleet : problem with less carriers the Emperor will always be taken I reckon. Drop it. Add Oberon.

That's about it.