If you could make an Imperial ship legal, which one(s) would it be?

[RCgothic]

While I like the idea of a Lance Carrier (and in particular having one more variant that frees up a WB deck), it would be even more useless as a stand alone cruiser than the gothic and dictator, utterly dependent on being in a fleet situation. I'd try a Battlecruiser variant instead:

Io Class Battlecruiser 260pts

Hits - 8              Speed - 20cm   Turns - 45°
Armour - 6+/5+  Shields - 2       Turrets - 3

Armament     Speed/Range  Strength     Arc
Prow Torps        30cm            6             F
P+S L. Bays     as craft           4            -
P+S Lances       45cm             2           L+R
Dorsal WB         60cm             6           F/L/R

[Zelnik]

sorry buddy, someone already used the name Io.. try again

[RCgothic]

Oh well. 

[Zhukov]

The Defiant is poor. Even with 6+ prow.

Yeah, so Endeavour is 120, deduct 15 for the prow and it is 105. So 120 is good with 6+ prow.

Agree on the point thing. Makes sense.

As for the Defiant, a pair of those has 4 Lances that shoot 30cm L/F/R. How is that a bad thing?

-Zhukov

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Because for 2 Dauntless' I can have Str 6 lances even though only forward firing for cheaper.

[Zhukov]

Well yeah, but lose two lances, gain 4 bombers? Um......... still not seeing how that's a waste of points...

-Zhukov

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

You were focusing on the lances. In the case of AC, I would counter that FP8 WBs per broadside are a much better deal esp when the Defiants are forced to BFI.

[horizon]

As for the Defiant, a pair of those has 4 Lances that shoot 30cm L/F/R. How is that a bad thing?

-Zhukov

You really do not want Defiants to be that close to the enemy. They are easy to surpress carriers.

[Zhukov]

They are easy to surpress carriers.

.

True. But so are most of the carriers in this game honestly. Its a support weapon, much like the Styx is in a Chaos fleet (minus the clear differences, I see them playing about the same). At least that's how I always viewed it.

-Zhukov

[Vaaish]

Support weapons want to stay back, but the defiant has short range and so must be close which puts it in position to be surpressed easily. This only changes if you squadron with a larger cruiser for protection, but does nothing to change the oddities of having a support ship tied to a line ship. Even then I would only think that putting it with a dictator would have any use.

[horizon]

Styx has 60cm weapons, Devestation has 60cm weapon.
Mars has a Nova Cannon.
Dictator is unique (torps+attack craft) do head on along Gothics/Lunars/Dominators.

[Zhukov]

Support weapons want to stay back, but the defiant has short range and so must be close which puts it in position to be surpressed easily. This only changes if you squadron with a larger cruiser for protection, but does nothing to change the oddities of having a support ship tied to a line ship. Even then I would only think that putting it with a dictator would have any use.

Imperial fleet is mostly short range, so as far as supporting the line cruisers it will do fine. And having a support ship tied to a line ship is an oddity? I'm not following that at all... Putting it with a Dictator would be darn useful, especially with the 6+ prow added.

Styx has 60cm weapons, Devestation has 60cm weapon.
Mars has a Nova Cannon.
Dictator is unique (torps+attack craft) do head on along Gothics/Lunars/Dominators.

With the 6+ Prow it can still move in with the rest of the fleet. Hiding two Defiants behind one or two line cruisers is not a bad tactic IMO.

Then again, why are we arguing this? You can't buy the Endeavor models anymore, unless you decide on the terribly overpriced Ad Mech model...

-Zhukov

[Vaaish]

And having a support ship tied to a line ship is an oddity? I'm not following that at all

Line ships: Lunar, Gothic, Tyrant, etc.
Support ship: Mars, Dictator (special case)

It would be odd to squadron the defiant to a lunar or gothic since the LB make it an odd composition. It would fit better squadroned with a mars or dictator since the armament is a better match. Without the 6+ prow it really needs to be squadroned to do anything useful since the larger cruiser can protect the weaker CL. Unlike a line cruiser, the defiant is much easier force BFI which hurts it even more since keeps it from reloading ordnance. Because of that you want to keep the things out of the line of fire, but paying 280 points for 4 LB isn't the best use of your points. That leaves squadroning the defiant. Put it with a mars and the lances and torpedoes don't so much. Put it with a lunar or gothic and things are a little better but you don't really have much option with the 2 LB making an endurance or endeavour a better choice. That leaves the dictator but even there it's a bit doubtful if there aren't better ways to spend the points.

[RCgothic]

Another problem the defiant has is that 6 WB P/SB are equivalent to 4 Launch Bays, yet it trades those for just 2, making it under-armed in comparison to the Endeavour and Endurance, as well as being more expensive and eclectically armed.

Obviously it can't have 4LBs, so that leaves doing something sensible with the remaining armament. Perhaps +15cm on the lances, or 2 torps in addition.

[Zhukov]

And having a support ship tied to a line ship is an oddity? I'm not following that at all

Line ships: Lunar, Gothic, Tyrant, etc.
Support ship: Mars, Dictator (special case)

It would be odd to squadron the defiant to a lunar or gothic since the LB make it an odd composition. It would fit better squadroned with a mars or dictator since the armament is a better match. Without the 6+ prow it really needs to be squadroned to do anything useful since the larger cruiser can protect the weaker CL. Unlike a line cruiser, the defiant is much easier force BFI which hurts it even more since keeps it from reloading ordnance. Because of that you want to keep the things out of the line of fire, but paying 280 points for 4 LB isn't the best use of your points. That leaves squadroning the defiant. Put it with a mars and the lances and torpedoes don't so much. Put it with a lunar or gothic and things are a little better but you don't really have much option with the 2 LB making an endurance or endeavour a better choice. That leaves the dictator but even there it's a bit doubtful if there aren't better ways to spend the points.

Ah now I see where your going with that. You should have said 'squadroning' not 'tied too'. I was thinking you were just talking about having the CL follow the CA around all day, lol.

Agreed with what you say. The biggest thing with the CL's is they count as a cruiser toward getting larger ships. So in this aspect they can be a very useful 280 pts.

Obviously it can't have 4LBs, so that leaves doing something sensible with the remaining armament. Perhaps +15cm on the lances, or 2 torps in addition.

Interesting thought.

-Zhukov