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Author Topic: If you could make an Imperial ship legal, which one(s) would it be?  (Read 172957 times)

Offline BaronIveagh

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Re: If you could make an Imperial ship legal, which one(s) would it be?
« Reply #525 on: January 30, 2011, 09:09:37 PM »
Yet another senseless half point. I'm guessing you are attempting to use this as proof for something. Not that it matters because no one takes any of the reserve chaos vessels regularly since they have that huge downside if they try special orders.

750 pts
3x daunt, 1 hades, 3x Cobra. 

Actually works pretty well, even on a 6x4 table. Works better with a Mercury but I get an extra two rerolls this way.

No dice. Chaos isn't the NO torpedo fleet, but it isn't one of their real strengths like with IN. There are several builds that grant chaos access to them. Heck, you can take a pack of infidels if you want backed up with a planet killer not to mention every chaos battleship has the option for torpedoes.

Let me turn that around then, and point out that IN isn't a NO AC list and that several IN ships have them.  I grant that Jovian is a poor choice for Bakka but I do feel it should be made official for some of the lists where it would make more sense.  Insisting that IN would never make such a ship anywhere because they're all driven toward big guns does not hold water.

What are you doing adding in grand cruisers, battle cruisers, and light cruisers to come up with that? None of those form the core of the fleet and none of those are listed as being extremely numerous.

They all count as cruisers.  And, IIRC, light cruisers outnumber regular cruisers by a significant margin, given their long range patrol and recon roles. 

Let me try some quick math for you: According to Bluebook, there are 600 odd Lunar's, the most common class, in Segmentum Obscuras.  There are approx 28k sectors in the Imperium, I believe someone mentioned.  Now, admittedly, they probably aren't divided evenly between segmentums, but purposes of mathematical simplicity, let's say they are. 

This means that 600 Lunars are divided among 5600 possible sector fleets in Segmentum Obscuras.  Only 11% of Imperial Sector fleets in this Segmentum have a lunar class, assuming they're distributed evenly.

So, what do the rest of them use?
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Offline lastspartacus

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Re: If you could make an Imperial ship legal, which one(s) would it be?
« Reply #526 on: January 30, 2011, 09:18:29 PM »
I wonder if GW employs a math and science team :)

I do hope the Jovian sees a list, just not Bakka.

Offline Vaaish

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Re: If you could make an Imperial ship legal, which one(s) would it be?
« Reply #527 on: January 30, 2011, 09:43:25 PM »
Quote
Actually works pretty well, even on a 6x4 table. Works better with a Mercury but I get an extra two rerolls this way.p/quote]
If it works so well, why aren't people taking them all the time? Because they are crippled by the SO rules that make them unreliable. This is especially true in your example since the Hades HAS to RO to be useful. Again, a useless discussion that has no relevance to the list at hand.


Quote
They all count as cruisers
Invalid. Battlecruisers are limited, grand cruisers are reserve fleets, and it is never mentioned that light cruisers are more prolific except in cases of attrition.  That points to the core of the fleets being a majority of line cruisers with some light cruisers. Really, why are we even talking about this?

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So, what do the rest of them use?
Again a useless discussion since we don't have such information. Of course, seeing that the blue book also says a sector battlefleet tends toward 50-75 ships, you have to assume that there are far more than 600 lunars if you are going to have the numbers work at all and maintain that the lunar is the most numerous cruiser even if we figure that 95% of those ships are escorts.
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Offline Plaxor

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Re: If you could make an Imperial ship legal, which one(s) would it be?
« Reply #528 on: January 30, 2011, 10:02:04 PM »
Yes, the reserves special rule in Bastions is interesting. However it doesn't make any real sense, and is too much of a negative.

Reason why in 'flawed ships' bastions fleet the reserve vessels simply have -1 ld, as their crews are either novice, or just don't know how to use the ancient technology.

I thought I read somewhere that there were ~20 lunars in battlefleet gothic. Which would make them much more numerous than any other line cruiser. (as I think every other one besides the dominator had no more than 5 or 6, dominator with 1)

That's besides any point. I'm going to start tallying everyones opinion of things in this fleet so that it's easier to read for nate/more convincing.

Offline BaronIveagh

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Re: If you could make an Imperial ship legal, which one(s) would it be?
« Reply #529 on: January 30, 2011, 10:52:57 PM »
If it works so well, why aren't people taking them all the time? Because they are crippled by the SO rules that make them unreliable. This is especially true in your example since the Hades HAS to RO to be useful. Again, a useless discussion that has no relevance to the list at hand.

Why would the Hades have to RO?  The Cobra squadron are the ones that would have to RO, and the 'unreliable' rule doesn't mean much for escorts. (when was the last time you had a crippled escort?)

Quote
So, what do the rest of them use?
Again a useless discussion since we don't have such information. Of course, seeing that the blue book also says a sector battlefleet tends toward 50-75 ships, you have to assume that there are far more than 600 lunars if you are going to have the numbers work at all and maintain that the lunar is the most numerous cruiser even if we figure that 95% of those ships are escorts.
[/quote]

Blue Book says there are six hundred, then there are six hundred.  After all, to suggest otherwise would invite in all sorts of Black Library/FFG fluff and god knows, we don't want that. 

Of course, at 11% it really could be the most common type of cruiser, with other types of local cruiser making up the bulk of IN.  Every forgeworld seems to have it's own ideas of what a warship should be (such as the Secutor class light cruiser peculiar to the Calixis Sector and the 'Voss Triumvate').


I thought I read somewhere that there were ~20 lunars in battlefleet gothic. Which would make them much more numerous than any other line cruiser. (as I think every other one besides the dominator had no more than 5 or 6, dominator with 1)

According to BB 20 Lunars took part in the Gothic War.  Not 20 Lunar's were part of Battlfleet Gothic.
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Offline Vaaish

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Re: If you could make an Imperial ship legal, which one(s) would it be?
« Reply #530 on: January 30, 2011, 11:14:55 PM »
Quote
Why would the Hades have to RO?  The Cobra squadron are the ones that would have to RO, and the 'unreliable' rule doesn't mean much for escorts. (when was the last time you had a crippled escort?)

My mistake, for some reason I was thinking Styx when I posted. I guess you could just never use SO with the Hades, but that seems a bit obtuse when you'd have similar options available and when you'd probably need some AC. Besides, when was the last time you saw any of the chaos ships show up in an IN list outside of theoryhammer with any regularity?

Quote
Blue Book says there are six hundred, then there are six hundred.  After all, to suggest otherwise would invite in all sorts of Black Library/FFG fluff and god knows, we don't want that. 

Except that's not what the bluebook says. It says OVER 600 which could be anything from 601-8,000 or beyond. Of course without firm numbers this is all speculation but to reconcile the size of the typical sector fleet with with the lunar being most common and not resorting to the entire fleet being made up of escorts, there have to be quite a few more lunars than just 601. 
-Vaaish

Offline BaronIveagh

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Re: If you could make an Imperial ship legal, which one(s) would it be?
« Reply #531 on: January 30, 2011, 11:47:10 PM »
Except that's not what the bluebook says. It says OVER 600 which could be anything from 601-8,000 or beyond. Of course without firm numbers this is all speculation but to reconcile the size of the typical sector fleet with with the lunar being most common and not resorting to the entire fleet being made up of escorts, there have to be quite a few more lunars than just 601.  

Eh, it still implies less then 700.  Compare this with the issue that it took the Segmentum five thousand years to put together 500 Murder class cruisers, the Lunar's predecessor as most common Cruiser.  Given that the advantage of the Lunar is that it's easier to build and maintain then the Murder, the fact that they've been able to replace their stock and increase their number by 100 in half the time seems about right.


Besides, when was the last time you saw any of the chaos ships show up in an IN list outside of theoryhammer with any regularity?



Oh, I dunno, I could swear I've seen one around an IN fleet someplace...
« Last Edit: January 30, 2011, 11:49:14 PM by BaronIveagh »
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Offline Vaaish

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Re: If you could make an Imperial ship legal, which one(s) would it be?
« Reply #532 on: January 30, 2011, 11:59:41 PM »
Quote
Eh, it still implies less then 700.
Stop being obtuse. There is no means by which you can say it implies 700 or 800 or even 650. The fact is any number over 601 that you choose is speculation. However we can speculate it's far more than 700 if you accept that a sector fleet is generally 50-75 ships and that less than 90% of those ships are escorts.

Look around, I think in the last three years I've seen exactly one list posted that someone actually bothered to take a Chaos ship via reserve. In fact, since you happen to have one, how often does that ship make it to the table as an IN ship? Far more rare than your Long Serpent I'd wager.

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Offline BaronIveagh

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Re: If you could make an Imperial ship legal, which one(s) would it be?
« Reply #533 on: January 31, 2011, 12:35:52 AM »
Quote
Eh, it still implies less then 700.
Stop being obtuse. There is no means by which you can say it implies 700 or 800 or even 650. The fact is any number over 601 that you choose is speculation. However we can speculate it's far more than 700 if you accept that a sector fleet is generally 50-75 ships and that less than 90% of those ships are escorts.

Look around, I think in the last three years I've seen exactly one list posted that someone actually bothered to take a Chaos ship via reserve. In fact, since you happen to have one, how often does that ship make it to the table as an IN ship? Far more rare than your Long Serpent I'd wager.

I'm not being obtuse with this.  Stop and think: It took all the years between M32 and M37 to produce almost 500 Murders (not about, not more then, 'almost' 500) the ship that Lunar replaced as the most common and the mainstay of BFO.  That's 100 a millenia. I'd say that, by way of comparison, that nearly doubling thier rate of ship production was pretty good, considering that the Imperium is actually backsliding technologically.  

To produce enough for every sector in the segmentum to have 10, it would require that 18.6 be produced every year since thier creation in m38. While I'm sure tht the Lunar really is easir to build, it would have to be 186 times easier, which I doubt.

On the second part,

Actually, I tend to leave the Mercury on the 20x40 and don't really use it much on the 6x4.   On 6x4 my IN mainstays are an Armageddon list (which I'm working on revising now that I don't have to take Endeavours to get Defiants anymore), and the Reserve fleet list with the Repulsive (which may get altered again since I had done it to sort of represent a powerful Rogue Trader's personal fleet)


EDIT: Now that I guess IA 10 has made the Cardinal official without, you know, giving any stats for it, they just put it in a fleet list....  it might not be a bad ship for Bakka since Bakka seems to have a higher percentage of faster IN ships anyway.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2011, 01:20:24 AM by BaronIveagh »
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Offline Vaaish

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Re: If you could make an Imperial ship legal, which one(s) would it be?
« Reply #534 on: January 31, 2011, 01:36:04 AM »
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To produce enough for every sector in the segmentum to have 10, it would require that 18.6 be produced every year since thier creation in m38. While I'm sure tht the Lunar really is easir to build, it would have to be 186 times easier, which I doubt.

We really have no way to tell for sure. But if you think of it in terms of the Murder requiring most of it to be crafted by hand as seems the case with nearly lost older tech in the imperium, and the possibility that the Lunar could be assembled in a more automated fashion it could conceivably be far faster to construct the Lunar. It did only take 11 years to build the lord daros. Assuming they keep that rate up and the ship is representative of the most primitive environment, that planet alone could build around 300 ships in the time since the murder was phased out.
-Vaaish

Offline Eldanesh

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Re: If you could make an Imperial ship legal, which one(s) would it be?
« Reply #535 on: January 31, 2011, 02:02:41 AM »
@Nate
First of all: thank you for your answer. It helps a little bit to know how someone comes to his conclusions.

The problem I see is, that some rules already in existence are taken as “holy” even if they are already flawed. Let's take the “long range weapons for imps” as an example.
The IN  isn't intended to have a lot of longe range weaponary. That's fine. Each race needs specific traits.
So you could make (a) long range weapons a bit more expensive or (b) give them less of them per ship.
The mistake is that they did both. They made the weapons more expensive (OK, just 5 points, buts the idea), AND gave them less Firepower per hardpoint (most obvious at overlord and Ret). Add in the fact that batteries in general lose value in high ranges (rightshift) and these ships are strucked three times, when only one ne was intendend.
You often see this mistake in 40k codices or WhfB armybooks: some unit/equipment that was too strong that in the new book  it get worse rules and becomes more expensive – an become useless in the end.
Good example are Eldar starcannons: in 3rd. Edition codex almost every heavy Eldar weapon was a starcannon - in the current rules you hardly see a single one as it not only lost 1/3 of its power (heavy3 → heavy2), but also became insanly expensive.

The “long range IN vessels” are, to some the degree, like the current starcannon: struck to hard by the negative aspects. Without doubt a tyrant would be a more popular vessel if there 45cm guns had S6 instead of S4 (even with a slight price increase of say 5points).

The reason I say this is simple: why should you repeat this mistake with “new” ships? It's always better to compare a design with popular and “working” designs instead with “broken” ones.
Never asked why almost everybody choose an Emperor over a Retribution, even after point swap?
OK, enough about this stuff back to some critic about V1.1

Please consider the following ideas as some kind of “brainstroming”-some suggestions may be completely opposed to each other. So this never intended as “change it in every aspect as I say”, it's more a “do it this way or another butchange it as the current status is disapointing”.


Fleet Defence turrent
I think this rule requires to much bookkeeping if used (“Lunar A equipped with 1 FDT, Gothic B with two). Also this option is to expensive to consider it for more than filling point gaps. If I have the option to buy 6 ftd turret or an additional cobra I would always choose the later.

So if it should be used you should make FTDs a) compulsory and b) less expensive.

My suggestion would be that you increase the price of all ships with 2 or more turrets by 5 points. (all with only one turret get the ftd for free) an all ships are equipped with 2 FTDs (or one)

Another idea is a complete rule change: simply allow all Ships in Battlefleet Bakka to use massed turrets while 5cm away from each other...


Domius Astra
The wording in the list is abit weird (it still speaks of 0-1 Emperors while ships doesn't appears anymore in the list).
I would suggest to remove any connections toregular Emperor battleships and make the Dominus Astra a real character ship instead:

Dominus Astra 570 Points
Stats of an Emperor Battleship, LD 10, 2 rerolls, assault boats, +1 to defend against bording
2 (yes two!!) fixed refits: perhaps secondary reactors an either a targetting matrix or motion-tracking targeters (as the ship “ripped through the bioships” before getting swarmed) an some nasty rule that guarantees that if this ship is blown up, it explodes with a real big bang (like  you never roll for catastrophic damage – it is always a warp drive implosion).
Use only in games oft 1500 points or more. And if you use it you can't have another Admiral of course.

Victory
It is sill inferior compared to an Retribution, which is already a substandard ship.
If you don't want to decrease points any further or up the weapons (dorsal battterys should be S9) how about increasing the speed to 25cm? The original idea of the victory was IIRC that of a “fast battleship”? This speed can be justified with the lack of weapons. Also on a fleel-level comparision the mercury gets more interesting if there is something that can follow her...
OR you can allow CTNH – a Battleship that is able to turn twice if not under fire is a tactical advantage that can compensate the lack of sheer power. (But OK, it's hard to justifiy unless you goo deeper in the “fast battleship” explanation)

Also I still hold the opinion that the torpedo Version should not be cheaper: it is right that a  Nc upgrade from S6 torps costs 20 points, but I always had the impression that the reason for this was simply to make it less appealing to players to avoid NC-Spam.
Also the NC rules have been altered since the bluebook that uses this 20 points. Today the Novacannon isn't nearly as fearsome as the “guess weapon” it was in the original rules.

Vanquisher
Undergunned, too slow for a gunship, overpriced and not even substandard range for a Battleship.
This beast has nothing to offer, so make it at least cheaper

Mercury
an 235P Armageddon with forced NC upgrade (+20P) that  trades S6@45cm guns for S4@60cm an 5cm speed and some dangerous special rule. IMOa bad deal because on a fleet level the improved speed only has a very limited value. (the main advantage is it can CTNH while under fire).

IMO this ship should be more appealing because otherwise you'll hardly see one: the armageddon is the better Gunship in fleet context and in general the “battlecruiser”-category is used up by the Mars and the Jovian, simply because this is where the players get their ACs from.

If you don't want to change cost and/or weapon loadout, just an idea: allow it without limitations. So you don't need to have 2 regular cruisers to force one, so there is no competition with the necessary carriers. You can justify it with the “fact” that the mercury seems to be a quite common sight ( 5 mentioned ships in the text).

Jovian
Same here as for Dominus Astra: make it a real “character ship” instead a “regular” ship class.
The reason is simply: only Character ships have 0-1 limitations.
Regular classes were never limited even if there have been very few ( despoiler – 3 ships built) or even consisted only of a single ship (Acheron).

And add a S3@45cm Broadside – this will end the whining about “pure” carriers and all hardspoints are used up :D

light cruisers
I you don't do it for the whole list at least all light cruisers should get the FTD-upgrade for free.

List summary:
the entry about Assault boats can be removed as the Emperor is gone.

Offline BaronIveagh

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Re: If you could make an Imperial ship legal, which one(s) would it be?
« Reply #536 on: January 31, 2011, 02:20:44 AM »
Quote
To produce enough for every sector in the segmentum to have 10, it would require that 18.6 be produced every year since thier creation in m38. While I'm sure tht the Lunar really is easir to build, it would have to be 186 times easier, which I doubt.

We really have no way to tell for sure. But if you think of it in terms of the Murder requiring most of it to be crafted by hand as seems the case with nearly lost older tech in the imperium, and the possibility that the Lunar could be assembled in a more automated fashion it could conceivably be far faster to construct the Lunar. It did only take 11 years to build the lord daros. Assuming they keep that rate up and the ship is representative of the most primitive environment, that planet alone could build around 300 ships in the time since the murder was phased out.

It takes 28 million tonnes of refined metals to produce 1 lunar, according to official numbers.  However, given it's volume, this means that it has a density slightly less then styrofoam.  In reality it would be on the order of approx 1,000,000,000,000 tonnes if it's really made of metal, though this is an estimate, and probably not wholly accurate.  

As a comparison, the planet earth produces 1,400,000,000 tonnes of steel per year.  At this rate of metal production, it would take nearly 1k years to produce a Lunar. 

I'm still not sure how they made the Lord Daros, unless the metal ores on the planet were very nearly pure.

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Offline Vaaish

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Re: If you could make an Imperial ship legal, which one(s) would it be?
« Reply #537 on: January 31, 2011, 02:36:12 AM »
Quote
I'm still not sure how they made the Lord Daros, unless the metal ores on the planet were very nearly pure.
Does it really matter? They did and it took 11 years and we know that the tribesmen had to smelt the metal before sending it up. That means the Imperium could feasibly have a very high number of lunars well above 600 produced in the time span.

Now if we could put this to rest and move back on topic.

With the FDT meant to make up for the lower ordnance in bakka, I think they need to be more attractive or built into the base stats of the ships if they are to accomplish the intended purpose or people will ignore them in favor of pulling the Jovian in under reserve rules. Part of the issue with them is that they are pretty easy to avoid once they've chosen a target to protect and by the wording it seems as if the vessel they are on wouldn't be able to use the turrets in their own defense either which could make a ships with them easier targets for AC.
-Vaaish

Offline Plaxor

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Re: If you could make an Imperial ship legal, which one(s) would it be?
« Reply #538 on: January 31, 2011, 02:51:25 AM »
I like the idea of simply giving Bakka vessels +1 turret. Simple and easy.

You could possibly increase their cost by 5 pts, but I would delete the Jovian, and say 0-1 mars.

Offline BaronIveagh

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Re: If you could make an Imperial ship legal, which one(s) would it be?
« Reply #539 on: January 31, 2011, 02:57:04 AM »
Quote
I'm still not sure how they made the Lord Daros, unless the metal ores on the planet were very nearly pure.
Does it really matter? They did and it took 11 years and we know that the tribesmen had to smelt the metal before sending it up. That means the Imperium could feasibly have a very high number of lunars well above 600 produced in the time span.

Yeah, but how did they transform the raw ingot into a finished product?  And if the planet was feral, how did they build the ship there in the first place?  Feral worlds arn't exactly known for thier shipyards.  And how did savages produce that much?  Pre-industrial mining only produced a few thousand tonnes of metal per year.  Even weird supermines like the gigantic strip mines of Sephris Secondus only produce 'billions' of tonnes of ore according to fluff.


Now if we could put this to rest and move back on topic.

With the FDT meant to make up for the lower ordnance in bakka, I think they need to be more attractive or built into the base stats of the ships if they are to accomplish the intended purpose or people will ignore them in favor of pulling the Jovian in under reserve rules. Part of the issue with them is that they are pretty easy to avoid once they've chosen a target to protect and by the wording it seems as if the vessel they are on wouldn't be able to use the turrets in their own defense either which could make a ships with them easier targets for AC.

The trick is to have the ships doing the boosting shielded by the ships getting boosted.  Remember that AC have to attack the first ship they come into B2B contact with.
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