If you could make a Chaos ship legal, which one(s) would it be?

[Dark Depths]

Hence why I think lots of people use it thus.  I think plaxor's just being a bit pessimistic.

[Zelnik]

Perhaps. I actually enjoy the idea that they are making the Inferno a "sort of" murder option, it really brings out the other option, gives a new weapons config, and lets you use the lance bays in something other then Devistations and Acherons.

Gah! BFG boils in my veins.. i must find a game to play

[lastspartacus]

Care to jump on vassal?  Im on right now.

Sig, the point still stands that at 45 and below it is almost the exact same as a l.r.f murder.

3 batteries equal 1 lance.  Batteries are valued thus because they are worse at range and get better than lances as you close.
If you are talking about worth purely at 60cm, in a vacuum, then str2 lances are worth str7 or str8 batteries, due to column shift.

Piddly difference.  If the Murder jumped to 180, id be all for it.  Then it would be right there with the lunar.  As it is, the Inferno is now probably our 'template' cruiser, as it seems to be the most balanced.

[Zelnik]

I have -no- idea how to use vassal, i wish i did!

[lastspartacus]

Step 1:

http://www.vassalengine.org/

Download vassal

Step 2:

Download latest BFG mod.  Its the last one at the bottom.

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=45e70f8805b982808c9e7c56ba37815fe8c93d33a60c787b

Step 3.  Open vassal, use vassal to open said module.  Play game online.  You should now be in the lobby.  Make a room.  Open a map.  And throw some pieces around and experement with the hotkeys.

[Sigoroth]

Care to jump on vassal?  Im on right now.

Sig, the point still stands that at 45 and below it is almost the exact same as a l.r.f murder.

So? If the Inferno had 60cm range on all its weaponry it wouldn't be a LFR Murder, because it would have more firepower at 60cm! In the same way the LFR Murder has more firepower than either the Inferno (45-60cm) or the Carnage (30-45cm) and so therefore it should not get LFR.

3 batteries equal 1 lance.  Batteries are valued thus because they are worse at range and get better than lances as you close.
If you are talking about worth purely at 60cm, in a vacuum, then str2 lances are worth str7 or str8 batteries, due to column shift.

Piddly difference.  If the Murder jumped to 180, id be all for it.  Then it would be right there with the lunar.  As it is, the Inferno is now probably our 'template' cruiser, as it seems to be the most balanced.

The 3 WB to 1 lance formula only applies upto 30cm. Beyond 30cm this comparison falls down. And no, 2 lances is worth at the very least 9 WBs at greater than 30cm, possibly up to 11. 10WBe is a good approximation. If you're talking overall value, and wish to average the >30cm value with the <30cm value then yes, those lances are worth ~8WBe overall. So a ship with 8WB@60cm is roughly equivalent overall to one with 2L@60cm [assume equal time spent shooting over and under 30cm].

Consider a LFR Murder with its lances replaced with 8WB@60cm. Then it would have -2WB@60cm & +2WB@45cm vs a Carnage, which is equal. However it will have a straight +2WB at 30cm or less, making it more powerful. The actual LFR lance comparison though is worse than this, because the Carnage doesn't get better ever, since they're even at 60cm, Murder superior at 45cm and back to even again when at 30cm or less. All while going abeam, just like the Carnage.

Tell me, if you allowed the Murder to get LFR at 180 pts then why would anyone ever take the Carnage? No, as it stands people take and like the Murder (I don't) at 170 pts. Leave it as is.

[Plaxor]

I always include at least 1 murder when I'm playing chaos, but then again I'm a fluff player, and for 170 points it is quite decent.

It is fine where it is, I just wish that there was slightly more incentive to take it over a carnage. 10 points isn't a lot.


Then again the Murder can take lances, which makes it appealing (as lances are worth more eq. WBs at 45cm), oh wait! the HA limited that variant and made a carnage with lances.... ugh....

[Zelnik]

Wow, see I never take carnage cruisers.

I look between it, and the slaughter, and utterly fail to see what the hype is about. I would rather wreck the enemy with greater firepower, and with the speed, i can get into range with no problem. 

Carnages are fine.. if you play against eldar...

[horizon]

Desolator
2x Acheron
2x Devestation
2x Carnage

A superb (abeam) Chaos fleet where the Carnage is really well placed and the Murder would be out of place.

[Plaxor]

Horizon, I counter your abeam argument with this!

Repulsive (+45cmlances and shield)
2xMurder w/lances
2xHades
2xDevestation


Looks more sensible with flawed ships, and your list isn't so decent in flawed ships, which is why the Murder is more viable in that version of the rules, as it is a bit harder to build a fleet based on ridiculously long range.

Probably would look like this in flawed ships:
Desolator
Acheron
Styx
2xCarnage
2xEmasculator (Inferno... still a crap name...)

[horizon]

What are we arguing?

If your first list goes abeam the following front only weaponry is not used:

6 torps on Repulsive
4 lances on Murder
4 lances on Hades

The list I posted will only see the 9 torps of the Desolator as "of".

So your fleet would need to close.

Maximum focus on broadsides
fleet as by Horizon vs fleet as by Plaxor
62 vs 54 wb @ 30cm
50 vs 42 wb @ 45cm
26 vs 0 wb @ 60cm

16 vs 15 l @ 30cm
16 vs 15 l @ 45cm
12 vs 8 l @ 60cm

8 vs 8 ac
9 vs 6 torps

20 vs 19 turrets
16 vs 14 shields
60 vs 58 hits

Ofcourse different doctrines but you said abeam.

The 2nd list you posted is somewhat similar to my core Renegade fleet:
Desolator
Styx
2x Carnage
1x Slaughter
6x Infidel
3x Iconoclast

[Plaxor]

Lol, yeah you're right. I meant 'murder based' fleet.

I'm just saying that in the scope of 'flawed ships' the murder is more viable as the Devestation has its range reduced. So the extremely long ranged chaos list is harder to build. Also, it actually makes the Styx much more useful, as if you wanted to build the long ranged chaos list, then you would have to take it instead of a devestation.

Ah brilliance that I didn't even realize at the time

[Sigoroth]

Lol, yeah you're right. I meant 'murder based' fleet.

I'm just saying that in the scope of 'flawed ships' the murder is more viable as the Devestation has its range reduced. So the extremely long ranged chaos list is harder to build. Also, it actually makes the Styx much more useful, as if you wanted to build the long ranged chaos list, then you would have to take it instead of a devestation.

Ah brilliance that I didn't even realize at the time

Le sigh. I did. This is why I argued that reducing the range on the Dev is well and truly sufficient; no need for a price hike too.

[Plaxor]

Le sigh. I did. This is why I argued that reducing the range on the Dev is well and truly sufficient; no need for a price hike too.

Yes, it shouldn't get a price-hike. With the 'relatively' low cost it artificially decreases the cost of the Murder, at least in the sense of fleet composition.

I didn't start thinking this way until I built the Eldar .pdf and discussed it with Bluedagger. Fleet composition is a significant factor in balancing ships.

Altering the cost/weaponry on one ship actually may change the effectiveness of another, through indirect means.

Such as the Retributions build, which makes the Tyrant (+range) much more viable, as it is easier to build a fleet based on 45cm range within the scope of IN.

[Zelnik]

Sig, i LIKE my long range support carrier...