If you could make a Chaos ship legal, which one(s) would it be?

[RCgothic]

That's an Avenger, but much better.

[barras1511]

I forgot to add if it is under any order besides lock on the targeting system is offline.

[commander]

Will not fly with me.
Too fast for a grand cruiser and too havely armed.

[barras1511]

Will not fly with me.
Too fast for a grand cruiser and too havely armed.

Fair enough. I was looking at the Desolators' profile for a points comparision when I wrote the 25cm speed. I don't mind the dropping of the speed down to 20cm to match the other GC of Chaos. As for fire power, 3 Carnages will out match 2 Abyssals using 60cm range and the targeting system for 540 points vrs the 600 points. So I don't see its fire power being too much of an issue but lets knock the 60cm P/S WB down to 8 from 10 . Number of shots on a closing cap ship from two Abyssals vrs three Carnage is..... 

11 dice vs 15 dice at 60cm
31 dice vs 23 dice at 45cm
31 dice vs 34 dice at 30cm
40 dice vs 43 dice at 15cm

Please take into account the extra hits the carnages have and the extra sheilds over the three ships. Also note the effect brace for impact and cripples will have on this Abyssal ships.
At Str 10 wb for the 60cm guns P/S the results were 14/34/34/43.

The altered profile
Abyssal Class Grand Cruiser      300 pts
Hits - 10
Armour - 5+  Speed - 20cm
Shields - 2  Turns - 45°
Turrets - 3
Armament
P+S WB  60cm  str 8    L/R
P+S WB  45cm  Str 8    L/R
Dorsal WB 45cm Str 6   F/L/R
       
Advanced targeting system. Ignores the right column shift for long range. This targeting system is offline when the Abyssal is crippled or under any special order other than lock on.

[lastspartacus]

How about a generic warp beast stat, with upgrades for each power?

[Masque]

How about a generic warp beast stat, with upgrades for each power?

Didn't I already say that?

Something else neat would be some kind of warp entities that actually function as ships.  A single statline could be made with a slight tweak for each Chaos power.

Yes, yes I did.

[lastspartacus]

I was just reiterating your statement, for consideration.  Yes, all credit to the wise-minded Masque! :p

[Masque]

I was just reiterating your statement, for consideration.  Yes, all credit to the wise-minded Masque! :p

If I came across a bit grumpy there, I apologize.  What kind of statline do we think these things should have?  I'm thinking roughly equivalant to a light cruiser but possibly with the Tyranid Kraken always braced rule to represent their daemonic save.  Here's something I threw together to get us started:

Warp Spawn					100 Points
Type/Hits: Cruiser/4	Speed: 20cm	Turns: 90º	Shields: 0	Armour: 5+	Turrets: 0
Weapon Batteries	Range: 30cm	FP: 8	Front

Daemonic:	Warp Spawn may not be upgraded to Daemonships as they have their own special rules.  Warp Spawn recieve a 4+ save as if Braced for Impact but may still use other special orders.
Uncontrolled:	Fleet Commander re-rolls may not be used for Warp Spawn but if a Warp Spawn fails a command check other ships in the fleet may still attempt to go on special orders though other Warp Spawn may not.  Warp Spawn may not be squadroned with non Warp Spawn.
Crewless:	Warp Spawn may not embark a Fleet Commander, Chaos Lord, or Chaos Space Marines. Warp Spawn may not board or conduct hit and run attacks but are also unable to be boarded or targetted by hit and run attacks.
Living Aether:	When a Warp Spawn suffers a critical hit do not roll on the critical hit chart. Instead the Warp Spawn takes an extra point of damage. When a Warp Spawn is destroyed do not roll on the catastrophic damage chart.  Instead roll a D6. If a 1-5 is rolled the Warp Spawn simply fades from existence but on a 6 its death throws tear a hole in reality. Place a 5cm by 5cm Warp Rift where the Warp Spawn was destroyed.
Chaos Alignment:	Each Warp Spawn may be aligned with a single Chaos power for the points cost indicated below.

Khorne	35 Points	An Iron Claw improves its armour to 6+ and exchanges its weapon batteries for firepower 6 heavy gunz with 30cm range and massive claws.
Nurgle	30 Points	A Plague Swarm improves its hits to 6 and exchanges its weapon batteries for firepower 8 pyro-acid batteries with 30cm range.  A Plague Swarm automatically passes the leadership test to navigate an asteroid field and is not slowed by blast markers.  Lances fired at a Plague Swarm will only hit on a 5+.
Slaanesh	35 Points	A Singing Eel exchanges its weapon batteries with strength 2 gauss particle whips with 15cm range.  Any ship wishing to fire at a Singing Eel must pass a leadership test even if it is the closest target.  A Singing Eel counts as having as many turrets as there are attack craft in any wave that attacks it even when it is crippled.
Tzeentch	40 Points	A Great Ray exchanges its weapon batteries with a star pulse generator and 2 launch bays with Screamers.  Screamers count as Eagle Bombers.  A Great Ray never needs to reload ordnance before launching more Screamers.

[Sigoroth]

Fair enough. I was looking at the Desolators' profile for a points comparision when I wrote the 25cm speed. I don't mind the dropping of the speed down to 20cm to match the other GC of Chaos. As for fire power, 3 Carnages will out match 2 Abyssals using 60cm range and the targeting system for 540 points vrs the 600 points. So I don't see its fire power being too much of an issue but lets knock the 60cm P/S WB down to 8 from 10 . Number of shots on a closing cap ship from two Abyssals vrs three Carnage is..... 

11 dice vs 15 dice at 60cm
31 dice vs 23 dice at 45cm
31 dice vs 34 dice at 30cm
40 dice vs 43 dice at 15cm

Please take into account the extra hits the carnages have and the extra sheilds over the three ships. Also note the effect brace for impact and cripples will have on this Abyssal ships.

31 vs 24 dice at 45cm, not 31 vs 23. So basically +7 dice in the 30-45cm band, -3 dice in all other bands. Slower, 2/3 total shielding, 5/6 total hits, with equal susceptibility to incidental fire though better protection against ordnance attacks but costs 60 pts more.

When braced, crippled or on any of the movement orders the comparison drops down to:

4 dice (-64%) vs 8 dice (-47%) at 60cm
11 dice (-65%) vs 12 dice (-50%) at 45cm
15 dice (-52%) vs 17 dice (-50%) at 30cm
20 dice (-50%) vs 22 dice (-49%) at 15cm

Meaning you lose substantially more when forced to brace the Abyssal squadron compared to the Carnage squadron. Same as when forced to manoeuvre or when crippled. When not in squadron the Abyssals are much larger points and firepower sinks, and take little more damage to bring down than a Carnage, so they'll be more attractive targets and lose far more for being so.

Break points - since we're talking the same number of shields per target then we can assume equal attrition value over several turns, ie, against either Abyssals or Carnages we ignore the 1st 2 shots per turn). So ignoring shields we see that break points as follows:


                          Abyssals                 Carnage
Hits Taken
      4                       -                         -17%
      5                     -25%                       -
      8                       -                         -33%
     10                    -50%                       -
     12                      -                         -50%
     15                    -75%                       -
     16                      -                         -66%
     20                   -100%                    -83%
     24                      -                         -100%

In each case we see only 1 or 2 points of difference in the break points, with the Carnages coming first but the Abyssals being more serious. However, this is complicated somewhat due to the earlier crippling effect reducing shields earlier, therefore requiring less hits to get through shields and more internal hits.

We can run a scenario where the squadron takes a certain number of hits per turn (remember, 2 Abyssals vs 3 Carnage) on the one target till it is dead. At 1 or 2 hits there is no damage at all to either squadron. At 3 hits per turn the Carnage is crippled 1 turn earlier than the Abyssal, so has 1 less shield next turn and so takes 1 more hit. However, due to spill over damage being wasted on shields, for both 3 and 4 hits per turn the progression actually mirrors the prediction above.

Let's have a look at 5 hits per turn however:

In the first 2 turns against either target there will be 6 internal damage due to 2 shields. This is enough to cripple either ship, therefore both drop shields down to 1 each. The Abyssal would have 4 hits left and  1 shield, so 5 hits on turn 3 is enough to destroy it. The Carnage has only 2 hits and 1 shield, leaving 2 hits left over to go on the next ship, but it has 2 shields, so no other effect is achieved. Three turns firepower to destroy either ship. This leaves the Carnages with the advantage of a whole ship left over.

What about 6 hits per turn? This gives 4 internal damage per turn. So it takes 3 turns to destroy an Abyssal, 2 to destroy a Carnage, meaning that we have at last achieved parity in over all survivability though better break points for the Abyssal (Carnages lose 1/6 firepower per turn, Abyssals lose 1/4 firepower every 2nd and 3rd turns).

When we go up to 7, 8 or 9 hits per turn then again the advantage swings back to the Carnages, such that by the time the 2nd Abyssal is destroyed there is a left over crippled Carnage (2-4 hits left), just like in 3 or 4 hits per turn. When we go 10-11 hits per turn it takes the same number of turns to destroy both squadrons, but the break points don't clearly favour the Abyssals like they do at 6 points per turn (and requires less actual firepower to achieve, so some could be redirected elsewhere). At 12 hits per turn again the Carnages have a whole undamaged cruiser left over when the last Abyssal is destroyed.

So the only times the Abyssals come close to the survivability of the Carnages is when taking 1, 2, 6, 10 or 11 hits per turn, and even then it takes no longer to destroy them. The Carnages have the advantage of a full or crippled cruiser left over when taking 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 9 or 12 hits per turn. And none of this even includes the Carnages superior ability to spread the damage (since there are 3 ships, not 2).

The above uses it like a Carnage, in which case it is fairly clearly shown to be inferior. Only other alternative is to use it like a line-breaker, where it will gain +2WB offside (2 x 16 vs 3 x 10). In this case the likelihood of using the extra range, and therefore the targeting rule is slim. So it would have +2WB offside firepower and -4 WB main side firepower. Therefore, less firepower and survivability than the Carnages, for +60 pts.


With only 1 narrow band of superior stand-off type firepower and no extra survivability for 60 pts more, the Abyssal is not overpowered. Please please please don't try to say that this ship is ovepowered.

[RCgothic]

It's not overpowered per point, it's overpowered per hull. The Avenger and Vengeance manage no more than FP32 total. Even with the 2pt reduction, this GC has FP38, a whole extra 18%.

[Sigoroth]

It's not overpowered per point, it's overpowered per hull. The Avenger and Vengeance manage no more than FP32 total. Even with the 2pt reduction, this GC has FP38, a whole extra 18%.

No, it's not overpowered by hull. It has the same broadside firepower as a Vengeance, with similar ranges. It has dorsal guns, which in no way makes it overpowered, since there's absolutely no reason to suspect that the current series of Vengeance CGs couldn't be given dorsal weaponry. The fact that they don't doesn't equate to the notion that they can't.

We're currently looking at giving prow weaponry to the Vengeance CGs, which would make them surpass the Abyssal in total firepower and I suggested dorsal weaponry too. I still don't know why that idea got shot down. I didn't see any discussion rejecting it. We're also looking at 20 WB broadsides for the Avenger which again surpasses that of the Abyssal. The only thing the Abyssal has going for it is the targeting matrix, and that isn't terribly overpowering, and the Vengeance and Executor get that effect on their lances by default anyway.

The dorsal weaponry costs a premium and the ship loses a shield for its targeting matrix, as well as even more points. There is nothing on this ship that isn't easily doable. Take a Vengeance, add dorsal guns (2@60cmLFR) for 35 pts (5 pts more than precedent suggests) and then add a Mars targeting matrix for another 35 pts (over twice the cost of the Mars upgrade). This ship would be:

1) Not unreasonable
2) Overpriced
3) Far far superior to the Abyssal

[lastspartacus]

To answer an earlier query by Nate, L/R/F Murder lances would be great.  You said 'wow, thats alot of focused firepower' but its exactly the same focused firepower as a Carnage.

[Sigoroth]

To answer an earlier query by Nate, L/R/F Murder lances would be great.  You said 'wow, thats alot of focused firepower' but its exactly the same focused firepower as a Carnage.

No it is not. Lances do not suffer a column shift. At 60cm range they're roughly equal. At 45cm range the Murder would be superior. At 30cm or less they're back to equivalent. They would both be able to go abeam. Murder is cheaper.

If you did this then the Murder would be the clearly superior ship. As it stands people do take it (not me) so why change it?

[lastspartacus]

It never really made sense to me, is all.  Im fine with a 10 point bump.  The Hades could keep forward fire to compensate for greater focus fire.  Just an idea.  Definitly not the chiefest of concerns in the fleet.

[lastspartacus]

@Masque:
I like where you are going on the warp beasts, the only thing I don't like is picking up random weapons and ordnance from other races.
Solidarity, my friend

Edit:
Am I the only one that still finds the Slaanesh powers to be very powerful?