If you could make a Chaos ship legal, which one(s) would it be?

[flybywire-E2C]

Hi Masque! Thanks for the input!

Nate,

This is all in reference to the 2.4 version of the Powers of Chaos.

The Siren's Summon ability in the Slaanesh fleet seems really powerful.  It's also poorly worded.  It doesn't say exactly when the enemy ships take the test.  It also seems able to prevent bracing for impact and repairing criticals.  If you want to keep it fairly powerful I'd make it prevent ships from ramming, boarding, shooting, or launching ordinance rather than only allowing movement.  This should keep the enemy from taking offensive action but not lead to weird arguments over exactly what else the ship can and cannot do.  Even then I think it'll be too powerful once ships get into melee range.  I'd limit it's effect to only one enemy per turn.  If you want to have it disable multiple enemies at a time i would only have it prevent the ships from going on special orders (other than brace).

The intent of Siren’s Summon is that it be scary so we can limit this and make it more expensive (say no more than two ships) rather than dumb this down. This will also be clarified to indicate exactly when the test happens, which will only be for ships that start their movement within 15cm of the ship.

Most of the other fleet powers seem reasonable except for maybe the Warp Beasts in the Tzeentch list.  Giving that to a couple ships and using them both at once will pretty much kill any cruiser outright or cripple a battleship all in one go.

It’s more expensive than a Nova Cannon, it has the same general effect, it can only be used by up to two ships, it only works at close range and has no scatter but can only be used once. The best part? This wasn't contrived- it's a cut and paste right out of the Forces of Chaos table (#4) on p.158 of the rulebook.

I see the Emasculator has been dubbed Inferno.  I remember you mentioning that the Emasculator was chosen because it had gone through plenty of playtesting over the years.  The problem I see here is that the ship you have listed is not the Emasculator I'm familiar with.  The original source was BFG Magazine #1 and I don't ever remember it getting an update.  The new ship looks fine because it's just pulling the Murder variant on a Carnage but it's strange to just sort of give it hand-wave approval because it was tested previously when it's not the ship that was tested (as far as I know).

Caught red-handed! The profile was tweaked slightly in that the broadsides were made weaker but longer ranged to make it a Carnage analogue instead of something that didn’t seem to be derived from anything at all. The prow batteries were made congruent to the Acheron. It’s essentially the same cost as a Carnage but has a slightly lighter weight of focusable firepower, to borrow a term.

Why does the Vengeful Spirit cost more than a standard Despoiler?  Am I missing something?  One last thing, what's with the weird line drawing of the City of Light?  Why the broadside lance?

I'm answering two questions here:

#1-  The Vengeful Spirit had prow torps when we first play-tested it (like the Damnation’s Fury) for +10 points, and I forgot to adjust it back down. As for the additional +10 points, I have found in extensive playtesting (I have used this profile for several years) that distributing launch bays over three arcs subtly enhances the ship’s effectiveness to resist being significantly encumbered by critical damage. Critical damage can affect launch bays more often (three arcs instead of two), but each critical affects no more than two to three launch bays. This will be dropped back down to 410 points.

#2- The broadside lance isn’t really that, it’s to roughly copy what the Terminus Est looks like in that it can take four dorsal lances roughly configured in the same manner as a Space Marine battlebarge’s dorsal bombardment cannon.  Once again, let me emphasize that absolutely NOBODY is beholden to make their models exactly as they appear in the line art, as long as a rough and easy-to-follow comparison can be made. There’s no reason why a stock Despoiler can’t use this ship’s profile and point cost, why a Devastation can’t be built with launch bays and open slots filled with two lance turrets, etc.

-   Nate

[flybywire-E2C]

Hi LastSpartacus! Thanks for the input!! 

Awesome, love the flavor in the god-specific fleets   Also, damn you for making my 7000 points of chaos now too small for all the variety ^^

Warp Beasts:  Should be limited to one ship.
Strand of Fate:  Cool!
Hives of Nurgle:  Cool!

Glad you like it. The intent of letting two ships have Warp Beasts was to make Chaos players decide between having less ships that are more shiny, or more ships with less toys attached.

Ark of Pestilence:  25 points for a 1/6 chance to cause a fire critical, while boarding?  For 25 points, just make it 'suffers automatic fire critical.'
I mean, it can still be repaired anyway, and probably still isnt worth 25 points.  More like 10.

This ended up getting changed a bit. The price dropped a little bit, and now the additional Fire crit is automatic. This play-tested well- two opponents stayed away from it completely to keep it from happening and concentrated their firepower to kill it before it got even close. In the end, we had to play a one-off battle and force a boarding action just to prove this thing didn’t suddenly become invincible.

It’s a gimmick but not really potent- the genius of it is the distraction it poses to the opponent. That’s the same reason why I love Kroot Warspheres. People are so afraid of getting boarded by them, they will pour whole fleets of firepower into them until they die. I have never had a Warsphere survive a battle I put it in, but I have never lost a battle with a fleet that had a Warsphere.

Berzerker Tide:  Needs some clarification.  If i understand it right, you must pass a second RO to get d3 markers, and either way can't use ordnance next turn?

Second Skorne Power:  Needs one

Bezerker Tide is fixed to apply to all Khorne ships, not just carriers. The rule is also more clear and simple.

Veil of Lust:  I think it is both too cheap and too limitless.  I don't like the idea of most of the abilities being in the whole fleet, makes em less special.

Siren's Summon:  I'm going to save my horrified comments that this came from the group in charge of official documents for my favorite game
For one, yes, when you take the test is unclear, and what it effects.  Secondly, do you realize that this, coupled with the leadership reduction from MoS itself, makes this perhaps the most broken thing in the game?  I'm hoping I'm missing something here.

Veil of Lust is now more expensive, but anyone can still buy it. “Really special” is saved for Siren’s Summon. Siren’s Summon was broken but is now fixed. It’ sstill potent, but the test is now clarified, it is more expensive, and only two ships can take it.

Edit:  I wanted the Murder that way because it is kind of a clunky design next to the Carnage, and with L/R/F lances it could bring equal firepower to a broadside, no more.

We’re not changing profiles, and in any case 2x60cm lances L/F/R is a LOT of firepower for a prow weapon!

-   Nate

[flybywire-E2C]

The Chaos Powers project has been updated to 2.5, with changes highlighted in red. Additionally, the Space Hulk ordnance restriction was deleted so there is nothing there to highlight.

The file can be seen here: http://tinyurl.com/23nul8q

- Nate

[horizon]

Hi,
someone Nate knows made this long time ago, I always found it to be cool:

Tzeentch
Silver Towers
points 405

defence/12
speed: special
turns: special
shields 4
armour 6+
turrets 4

prow lance @ 60cm str.D3 - Allround
dorsal lance @ 60cm str.D3 - Allround
port battery @ 60cm str.2D6+1 - Allround
starboard battery @ 60cm str.2D6+1 - Allround

no CTNH
may teleport up to to 3d6cm away in the movement phase. 6d6cm on AAF. Lock on allowed.


Ray did it. Old Warp Rift's had Chaos specific lists.

[Masque]

The Siren's Summon ability in the Slaanesh fleet seems really powerful.  It's also poorly worded.  It doesn't say exactly when the enemy ships take the test.  It also seems able to prevent bracing for impact and repairing criticals.  If you want to keep it fairly powerful I'd make it prevent ships from ramming, boarding, shooting, or launching ordinance rather than only allowing movement.  This should keep the enemy from taking offensive action but not lead to weird arguments over exactly what else the ship can and cannot do.  Even then I think it'll be too powerful once ships get into melee range.  I'd limit it's effect to only one enemy per turn.  If you want to have it disable multiple enemies at a time i would only have it prevent the ships from going on special orders (other than brace).

The intent of Siren’s Summon is that it be scary so we can limit this and make it more expensive (say no more than two ships) rather than dumb this down. This will also be clarified to indicate exactly when the test happens, which will only be for ships that start their movement within 15cm of the ship.

I'd still suggest listing exactly what a ship can't do instead of saying it can only move.  Can it navigate an asteroid field or warp rift?  Can it all ahead full since that is just special movement?  Can it brace for impact?  I can see people being hit by bombers on the turn they are Summoned and saying "They can't hurt me, I can't take damage this turn."  I would specifically say ships that fail the leadership test can't use special orders, shoot, launch ordnance, board, or make teleport attacks.  I would allow bracing and repairing criticals but maybe you don't want that either.  If you only let them move there are going to be plenty of borderline situations where it is "sort of like movement" or "part of movement" and people are going to wonder if they can do it or not.  Also, if a ship is in range of both Summoning ships does it have to pass two leadership tests to function?

Attack craft carriers may launch up to D3 more attack craft markers of any type if less than 20cm of their target.  If they do so, they must Reload Ordnance and not launch in the next turn.

I would reword the last sentence like so:  "They may not launch attack craft next turn."  This allows a refitted Despoiler to launch its torpedos but you could just replace "attack craft" with "ordnance" if you don't want that.  The main goal of this rewording is so people are not forced to reload next turn, which I don't think is the intention.  Also "if less than 20cm" should be changed to "if within 20cm".

[lastspartacus]

Glad you like it. The intent of letting two ships have Warp Beasts was to make Chaos players decide between having less ships that are more shiny, or more ships with less toys attached.
[\quote]
After thinking about it, you're right.  2 is ok, since it does indeed cost more than a nova, and its once per game.  Tzeentch in the fluff tends to have the most 'eggs in a basket' so to speak, anyway.  Any chance on getting the MoT cheapened?  Its for one ship and costs the same as a fleet reroll.

This ended up getting changed a bit. The price dropped a little bit, and now the additional Fire crit is automatic. This play-tested well- two opponents stayed away from it completely to keep it from happening and concentrated their firepower to kill it before it got even close. In the end, we had to play a one-off battle and force a boarding action just to prove this thing didn’t suddenly become invincible.

It’s a gimmick but not really potent- the genius of it is the distraction it poses to the opponent. That’s the same reason why I love Kroot Warspheres. People are so afraid of getting boarded by them, they will pour whole fleets of firepower into them until they die. I have never had a Warsphere survive a battle I put it in, but I have never lost a battle with a fleet that had a Warsphere.

Glad its automatic.  But really, is it that strong a psycological effect, one fire crit on top of everything else that can happen in a boarding option?
Trying to get away from something that might not hurt you at all (repair)? Seems like a 10 pointer to me, for 20 points, 2 fire criticals would be good.  Better that way actually, its actually more scary, and much less odds of repairing it.

Bezerker Tide is fixed to apply to all Khorne ships, not just carriers. The rule is also more clear and simple.

Still a bit unclear to me.  How many ships can take it, and is it free?  Is it a part of the MoK, base?  If a ship with this ability boards, it has to use the ability, and can't BFI or anything else for a turn?  If it launches D3 AC, it must test an additional RO to do so?

Veil of Lust is now more expensive, but anyone can still buy it. “Really special” is saved for Siren’s Summon. Siren’s Summon was broken but is now fixed. It’ still potent, but the test is now clarified, it is more expensive, and only two ships can take it.

Veil seems good now.  My only real exception is the amazing power for the points that Siren's Summon is.

[Masque]

Tzeentch
Silver Towers
points 405

defence/12
speed: special
turns: special
shields 4
armour 6+
turrets 4

prow lance @ 60cm str.D3 - Allround
dorsal lance @ 60cm str.D3 - Allround
port battery @ 60cm str.2D6+1 - Allround
starboard battery @ 60cm str.2D6+1 - Allround

no CTNH
may teleport up to to 3d6cm away in the movement phase. 6d6cm on AAF. Lock on allowed.it. Old Warp Rift's had Chaos specific lists.

I would also love to see Silver Towers make an appearance but I think this statline is kinda nuts.  In Epic they're about on par with a superheavy tank so they definately shouldn't be battleship strong.  I'd like to see them be light cruiser sized but I think escort sized would probably be more appropriate.  I don't think they ever teleported in Epic but I kind of like the idea.

Silver Tower
50 points
Defense/1, Speed: Special, Turns: N/A, Armor: 6+, Shields: 2, Turrets: 2
WBatts: 4 @ 30cm, All Round
Lances: 1 @ 30cm, All Round
Special Rules:  Silver Towers can move up to 10cm in any direction in the movement phase.  May not Come To New Heading or Burn Retros.  On All Ahead Full a Silver Tower will teleport exactly D6x10cm in any direction instead of moving.

Something else neat would be some kind of warp entities that actually function as ships.  A single statline could be made with a slight tweak for each Chaos power.

In Powers of Chaos the current wording of "Using Vessels for the Power of Chaos" on page 16 still doesn't really say you can take the various VBBs in any list and the Inferno and Hecate are allowed in "the Chaos fleet list" instead of "any Chaos fleet list" which I assume is the intention.  As worded I don't think the Vengeful Spirit can actually be taken by Chaos at all.  It isn't added to any specific fleet or all fleets in general.  It can clearly be taken by loyalist Marines.

I think I thought of another problem with the god specific fleet lists.  All the special powers are effectively just refits so it seems like a 13th BC list could take reserve ships from the Tzeentch fleet and get Warp Beasts or from the Slaanesh fleet and get Sirens Summons so yet again there seems very little reason to actually use these lists.  I say put all the new ships (Inferno, Hecate, VBBS) except the Vengeful Spirit only in the god specific lists.  The Inferno and Hecate will still be in fairly easy reach for 12th and 13th BC lists but there's a bit more incentive to take these lists.

The first part of Berserker Tide only applies to ships with the Mark of Khorne.  The part that works for carriers seems to be fleet wide though.

Here's an idea I had for the Conqueror to make it a bit more fluffy.  Take away its standard torpedos and lower its points a bit.  Khorne says torpedos are for boarding.

[lastspartacus]

+1 on warp monsters.  Hard to control/chance of attacking chaos ship would be even better

I've always wanted Silver Tower rules in BFG.  My main fleet is Thousand Sons.  I never imagined them being near battleship sized though.

[lastspartacus]

Can the character ships have mark upgrades, say, Wage of Sin having siren's summon?

[Zelnik]

Well, I would like to know what model we are supposed to use to represent these magical powers. Since the HA is obsessed with WYSWYG at the moment.

[Masque]

Well, I would like to know what model we are supposed to use to represent these magical powers. Since the HA is obsessed with WYSWYG at the moment.

For Warp Beasts get a pack of Warmaster Screamers of Tzeentch.  Pin some wires into a few and glue them flying around the ship.  I've already got some of these I intend to mix in with my attack craft for purely cosmetic reasons.

[Sigoroth]

For Warp Beasts get a pack of Warmaster Screamers of Tzeentch.  Pin some wires into a few and glue them flying around the ship.  I've already got some of these I intend to mix in with my attack craft for purely cosmetic reasons.

Not a bad idea.

[Zelnik]

...that was supposed to be sarcastic.... 

[horizon]

I know you where but the replies are pretty cool. You inspired them Zelnik. heh heh

[barras1511]

Abyssal Class Grand Cruiser      300 pts
Hits - 10
Armour - 5+  Speed - 25cm
Shields - 2  Turns - 45°
Turrets - 3
Armament
P+S WB  60cm  str 10  L/R
P+S WB  45cm  Str 8    L/R
Dorsal WB 45cm Str 6   F/L/R
       
Advanced targeting system. Ignores the right column shift for long range. This targeting system is offline when the Abyssal is crippled.