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Author Topic: If you could make a Chaos ship legal, which one(s) would it be?  (Read 127473 times)

Offline horizon

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Re: If you could make a Chaos ship legal, which one(s) would it be?
« Reply #285 on: November 30, 2010, 04:44:59 AM »
Ehm Zhukov, I do like the Styx, I said 250 was too cheap and tagged it at 260-275. I also said the Devestation was better. :)

Offline Zelnik

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Re: If you could make a Chaos ship legal, which one(s) would it be?
« Reply #286 on: November 30, 2010, 04:56:32 AM »
Right now i am more interested in what progress the HA has achieved with the ships they are WILLING to work with.  Needless bickering about what is 'over priced' or 'underpriced' does not seem to be making a difference at this stage.

Offline RCgothic

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Re: If you could make a Chaos ship legal, which one(s) would it be?
« Reply #287 on: November 30, 2010, 09:24:17 AM »
I can definitely feel a Warp Rift article coming up. Just because the HAs won't act doesn't mean the fixes can't be published.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2010, 10:28:10 AM by RCgothic »

Offline Sigoroth

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Re: If you could make a Chaos ship legal, which one(s) would it be?
« Reply #288 on: November 30, 2010, 12:20:16 PM »
I can definitely feel a Warp Rift article coming up. Just because the HAs won't act doesn't mean the fixes can't be published.

Agreed. Seeing a full document with all the changes in place would make it seem more "official" to some people. And by this I don't mean sanctioned changes, or confusing them as such. I mean "official" as in "some people really went to a lot of trouble and effort to 'get it right', so it must be worth having a look at". This is the same psychological principle underlying people's preference for items priced at $9.99 instead of $10. A bit of a dodgy tactic I know, but since most opposition to change is also an unreasoning form of psychological resistance then it's fine as far as I'm concerned.

Offline horizon

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Re: If you could make a Chaos ship legal, which one(s) would it be?
« Reply #289 on: November 30, 2010, 12:35:14 PM »
Warp Rift will have a place for this. I think we can agree on that. :)

Offline Sigoroth

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Re: If you could make a Chaos ship legal, which one(s) would it be?
« Reply #290 on: November 30, 2010, 12:52:30 PM »
Why would anyone assume this?

And that sir is also why it's completely illogical to eliminate somebody from the conversation outright purely because the carrier they have chosen for their fleet is the Styx and because of that, they don't personally own the others.

Le sigh. Look, if one assumes that your preference for the Styx comes from ignorance of the other options then it is perfectly fine to conclude that you're ineligible to comment on balance because of your lack of perspective. On the other hand if we make the assumption that you have tried the other options but then chose to take only a Styx then the inevitable conclusion is that you have no idea of balance and so are ineligible to comment anyway. I think the former is the most kind assumption.

It is not just about which ship is the best on the battlefield. Everyone is willing to stipulate that the Styx is a better ship. It's about the price you pay for what you get. A Styx is better than a Dev. 2 Styx are nowhere near as good as 3 Dev. Not even close. Given the Styx is harder to take (it's a CB) it should come off ahead in such a comparison.

Quote
And yet direct comparisons with the alternative have proved you wrong.

Proved? The only thing I see is two different opinions with people such as Horizon supporting both arguments regarding which tactic is better. I stand by the fact the Styx should not be cheaper than the Retaliator when an argument can be made the Styx is already a better vessel.

Yes proved. 12WB@60cm is nowhere near as powerful as 2L@60cm + 18WB@30cm + 6L@60cm offside firepower, 8 extra hits and 2 extra shields. Are you seriously contending that it is? (Hint: don't try, it would make you look crazy). If the Dev should get adjusted down then this helps the Styx, but it still doesn't make up for a 50% increase in survivability as well as the extra firepower at 30cm and offside. It needs to come down in price. As for the Retaliator, the shear worthlessness of this ship isn't a reason to say the Styx should also be crap.

Offline flybywire-E2C

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Re: If you could make a Chaos ship legal, which one(s) would it be?
« Reply #291 on: December 03, 2010, 04:33:53 AM »
Hi everyone!! There’s a big set of updates today!  If you want to get to it, click the link below.

http://tinyurl.com/23nul8q*


Powers of Chaos 2.1: The Terminus Est is unchanged from the Fanatic article, but the additions here add a LOT of character customization to a given Chaos fleet. Some of the stuff here reaches all the way back to when the game was called Rogue Trader! There will be surprises for everyone, and I expect LOTS of hate mail over this one. <sigh>


- Nate


Check out the BFG repository page for all the documents we have in work:
http://tinyurl.com/23nul8q
:) Smile, game on and enjoy!           - Nate

Offline lastspartacus

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Re: If you could make a Chaos ship legal, which one(s) would it be?
« Reply #292 on: December 03, 2010, 06:23:38 AM »
Quick skim over:

Love the idea of a chaos space hulk!  Great surprise!  They do after all use them in the fluff, dunno why anyone, including myself, didn't clamor for one.  

No character grand cruiser or heavy cruiser VBBs?  Would be really cool.

Don't like even more carriers coming int othe game before we fix some of our old stuff.
Some comments on this thread made me realize that the Murder could never be right until it could rotate its lances :)
And I don't know what the Cerberus is supposed to be, but I can never accept some wierd new heavy cruiser thats supposedly an upgraded Slaughter, but isn't.  Boo!

Overall though, I love the doc, and nothing hurts me if I just choose not to play it obviously.

Edit:  Daemonships different prices for different fleets?
I wonder why.  Seems the Tzeentchian ones stayed the same.  I understand the daemonship ability is very powerful and may have warranted a price increase, I'm just curious why some stayed the same, or some went up more than others.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2010, 06:34:11 AM by lastspartacus »

Offline Sigoroth

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Re: If you could make a Chaos ship legal, which one(s) would it be?
« Reply #293 on: December 03, 2010, 09:52:06 AM »
Wage of Sin - reduce AC to 4.

Vengeful Spirit - again, increase broadside WBs to at least 10, drop broadside launch bays to 2 each, increase prow launch bay to 4, delete prow lances.

Conqueror - don't give this ship 1.5 times Slaughter armament and picture it with 3 lance decks. Combined decks don't exist except by some peoples preference.

Inferno - delete it, you can't or won't fix it.

Remove the stupid Khorne/Slaanesh & Tzeentch/Nurgle rivalries. They make no sense. Tzeentch is the natural antithesis of Khorne. Tzeentch is the a schemer and lurker, never comes at anything head on and never stays and fights to the death. Always manipulating and never what he seems, master of deception and misdirection. On the other hand Khorne is a mere brute. These two powers are diametrically opposed. There is zero common ground. This is much much worse than Slaanesh, who do the same thing as Khorne, but for different reasons.

Nurgle is the natural antithesis of Slaanesh. Nurgle is death and decay, the end of all things, entropy and loss. Slaanesh is eternal youth and beauty, life in its prime. The vitality of Khorne's destructive urges is far more in keeping with Slaanesh than is the loss of feeling and life that is Nurgle.

Decay and disease are also forms of change so Nurgle is actually complimentary with Tzeentch, which is the lord of change. The only difference is that Nurgle's changes cannot invigorate.

Khorne's lust for battle and Slaanesh's lust for sensation (particularly that derived from battle) are complimentary. Khorne honours skilled warriors, Slaaneshi are graceful and skilled combatants. Khorne will fight to the death face to face with their enemies. Slaanesh will do the same, if for different reasons.

Likewise Nurgle are tough and staunch foes, hard to kill and implacable, so complimentary to Khorne. Slaanesh is about enticement and allure, and Tzeentch is about manipulation, so these two are also complimentary.

Let's think about it diagrammatically. Think of the major Chaos powers as representing a cardinal point on a compass. Khorne as the headstrong bull-necked leader would take up position at the front, so North best represents Khorne. Tzeentch as the manipulative, scheming and tricky Chaos power would take up position in the rear, so South for them. Slaanesh is the new Prince, the upstart and new dawn. He would take up position to the East. Nurgle is the inevitable end, entropy, loss and decay. He would represent dusk, and so take up position to the West.

Now draw perpendicular lines between the cardinal points, as you would a compass. The opposites are the oppositional powers. Now overlay another cross like the first, only this one rotated 45° so as to form the 8 pointed star of Chaos. These intermediary lines are representative of the alliance between near cardinal points (Khorne/Slaanesh, Khorne/Nurgle, Slaanesh/Tzeentch, Nurgle/Tzeentch) and where all the lines intersect, in the middle of the star, is Chaos undivided.

Offline horizon

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Re: If you could make a Chaos ship legal, which one(s) would it be?
« Reply #294 on: December 03, 2010, 02:32:31 PM »
Sig, you may be right in concept about the Chaos Gods but GW always (since '80's) Khorne vs Slaanesh, Tzeentch vs Nurgle was added later as a rivalry.

Offline flybywire-E2C

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Re: If you could make a Chaos ship legal, which one(s) would it be?
« Reply #295 on: December 03, 2010, 03:42:04 PM »

Edit:  Daemonships different prices for different fleets?
I wonder why.  Seems the Tzeentchian ones stayed the same.  I understand the daemonship ability is very powerful and may have warranted a price increase, I'm just curious why some stayed the same, or some went up more than others.

Good question. As the document indicates, demonships in "flavored" fleets come with Marks on them, which have to be paid for. Tzeentch demonships stay priced as-is because they don't automatically come with marks, which balances out the fact that you can have a fleet of JUST demonships (except the flagship) if you want!

- Nate
Check out the BFG repository page for all the documents we have in work:
http://tinyurl.com/23nul8q
:) Smile, game on and enjoy!           - Nate

Offline flybywire-E2C

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Re: If you could make a Chaos ship legal, which one(s) would it be?
« Reply #296 on: December 03, 2010, 04:04:48 PM »
Hi Sigoroth! :D Here’s the input I was waiting for.  <sigh>

Wage of Sin - reduce AC to 4.


I thought about that and played it this way, but it’s hard to justify the cost with the launch bays dropped to 4, and this is supposed to be a flagship vessel (and thus expensive).

Quote

Vengeful Spirit - again, increase broadside WBs to at least 10, drop broadside launch bays to 2 each, increase prow launch bay to 4, delete prow lances.


The easiest route with this was to use the Terimus Est profile as a template to work backwards from. We assumed the Terminus Est had a more cramped prow launch bay than most pre-Heresy battle barges and went from there to bridge it toward the Despoiler without making it a clean one-for-one swap. Additionally, note that this profile (alone from all the profiles in the document) has a lot of customization possibilities built into it. Sorry Sig, this one’s staying as-is.

Quote

Conqueror - don't give this ship 1.5 times Slaughter armament and picture it with 3 lance decks. Combined decks don't exist except by some peoples preference.


Exactly. It’s some people’s preference that it be this way. It is your preference that it not be this way. I’m simply using the precedent already well-understood in the rulebook and will NOT nit-pick minutiae like this. Nobody is obligated to model their ships based on the pictures; I personally stick two broadside lances on every one of my Devastations, and I know plenty of people who model all their ships like Murders and simply declare before a battle which ones are Carnages. There are no rules police saying what you can and can’t do with your models as long as obvious conventions are followed. For example, the rulebook lets you substitute Emperor battleships for Space Marine battle barges, but I wouldn’t let somebody do that with a Dauntless!

‘ nuff said.  :)

Quote

Inferno - delete it, you can't or won't fix it.


“I don’t like it” is not the same thing as “delete it because it’s broken.” The Inferno is not broken. However, nobody is obligated to use it. Plenty of people dislike and won’t use Acherons, yet they still remain in the rulebook. My concern was fixing a broken profile, which is done. Are there Chaos ships better than the Inferno? Yes, depending on the application or tactics desired, but the ship still fits the Chaos format and is both playable and balanced.

Quote

Remove the stupid Khorne/Slaanesh & Tzeentch/Nurgle rivalries. They make no sense. Tzeentch is the natural antithesis of Khorne. Tzeentch is the a schemer and lurker, never comes at anything head on and never stays and fights to the death. Always manipulating and never what he seems, master of deception and misdirection. On the other hand Khorne is a mere brute. These two powers are diametrically opposed. There is zero common ground. This is much much worse than Slaanesh, who do the same thing as Khorne, but for different reasons.

Nurgle is the natural antithesis of Slaanesh. Nurgle is death and decay, the end of all things, entropy and loss. Slaanesh is eternal youth and beauty, life in its prime. The vitality of Khorne's destructive urges is far more in keeping with Slaanesh than is the loss of feeling and life that is Nurgle.

Decay and disease are also forms of change so Nurgle is actually complimentary with Tzeentch, which is the lord of change. The only difference is that Nurgle's changes cannot invigorate.

Khorne's lust for battle and Slaanesh's lust for sensation (particularly that derived from battle) are complimentary. Khorne honours skilled warriors, Slaaneshi are graceful and skilled combatants. Khorne will fight to the death face to face with their enemies. Slaanesh will do the same, if for different reasons.

Likewise Nurgle are tough and staunch foes, hard to kill and implacable, so complimentary to Khorne. Slaanesh is about enticement and allure, and Tzeentch is about manipulation, so these two are also complimentary.

Let's think about it diagrammatically. Think of the major Chaos powers as representing a cardinal point on a compass. Khorne as the headstrong bull-necked leader would take up position at the front, so North best represents Khorne. Tzeentch as the manipulative, scheming and tricky Chaos power would take up position in the rear, so South for them. Slaanesh is the new Prince, the upstart and new dawn. He would take up position to the East. Nurgle is the inevitable end, entropy, loss and decay. He would represent dusk, and so take up position to the West.

Now draw perpendicular lines between the cardinal points, as you would a compass. The opposites are the oppositional powers. Now overlay another cross like the first, only this one rotated 45° so as to form the 8 pointed star of Chaos. These intermediary lines are representative of the alliance between near cardinal points (Khorne/Slaanesh, Khorne/Nurgle, Slaanesh/Tzeentch, Nurgle/Tzeentch) and where all the lines intersect, in the middle of the star, is Chaos undivided.


We will NOT EVER be changing the rivalries. This came directly from GW, with some of this fluff pre-dating Battlefleet Gothic. It is FAR beyond our mandate to re-write core Warhammer 40k fluff simply because of how we think it should be aligned.

-   Nate


Check out the BFG repository page for all the documents we have in work:
http://tinyurl.com/23nul8q
:) Smile, game on and enjoy!           - Nate

Offline lastspartacus

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Re: If you could make a Chaos ship legal, which one(s) would it be?
« Reply #297 on: December 03, 2010, 07:15:15 PM »
Why, they retcon their own all the time, and Sig actually made good sense ^^
Time has shown me that in the grim darkness of the 41st millenium, there are only revisions!

Slaughter heavy cruiser.  Not30cm and long ranged weaponry.  What gives?

Offline horizon

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Re: If you could make a Chaos ship legal, which one(s) would it be?
« Reply #298 on: December 03, 2010, 08:25:37 PM »
Hi,

City of Light
I am no such fan of 9 batteries (bfi/crippled), make them 8. Otherwise cool.

Wage of Sin
A Desolator with:
+ 6 launch bays
-15cm on the lances.

Surely this ship either: Drops speed or Drops AC to 4. I favour the latter. Fast Battleship Carrier.

Vengeful Spirit
I understand Sigoroth, the vessel is based upon the skewed Despoiler design. Check the thread in the discussion area were we are discussing ships. No one likes the Despoiler design in relation to the model design.

Now the Vengeful Spirit, being different then the Despoiler could be made like you propose. BUT ONLY if the standard Despoiler profile is adjusted.

Hecate
May be balanced (compared to Styx it trades 2 AC for 8wb) but I don't want another carrier in the Chaos fleet.

Cerberus
Since this is a Slaugher Battlecruiser it must have 30cm speed and 5d6 on AAF. All weapon ranges at 30cm. I mean, we have been very clear about that. :)

Inferno
Drop it, not needed. Even less nice then a Hecate.

Fleet Lists
With the little differences isn't there a way to create this through a single page? Think about the enviroment when printing on paper.


Major point A
Daemonships
I would rather have updated rules on them then a Hecate or Inferno.

Major Point B
Tweaking
I am still preferring a change of all the ships in the blue book, armada and exisiting pdf's then adding new cruisers for Chaos. Adding the themed battleships to the Terminus Est is good. But instead of Hecate I rather see the Styx fixed as it should (260), instead of an unneeded Inferno I rather see a fixed Devestation (45cm lances). All about priorities. Instead of the Vengeful Spirit (less-needed battleship) I would rather see the correct Despoiler profile.

All in good will. :)


Offline Sigoroth

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Re: If you could make a Chaos ship legal, which one(s) would it be?
« Reply #299 on: December 04, 2010, 05:05:12 AM »
Sig, you may be right in concept about the Chaos Gods but GW always (since '80's) Khorne vs Slaanesh, Tzeentch vs Nurgle was added later as a rivalry.

Not in fantasy.