If you could make a Chaos ship legal, which one(s) would it be?

[lastspartacus]

And then theres the fact that IN has always paid a premium for ordnance outside of torps, because thats how it was designed.
The one problem is as mentioned, it makes the Emperor almost autoinclude.  And...I hate ordnance having to be autoinclude.

[RCgothic]

But again, a firepower upgrade to the Retribution would help a lot with that.

[Mazila]

Styx as it is now is way too expensive. I have used my one only once and in a 3000 pts battle.

If it its price goes down to 250 i will deffinately make it my flagship from time to time. If we look at Styx as an upgrade for Devastation then +60 pts seams reasonable. It still can be braced and crippled with ease since it's only a cruiser.

Styx is probably going to be a flagship most of the time which makes it at least 300 pts with an admiral onboard.

2 devastations would outperform in easily and only cost 80 more pts that Styx with admiral.

I think 250 is fine.

[Zhukov]

The Styx is fine the way it is at 275 points. It's combat niche is supposed to be as a flagship for small fleets that need defensive attack craft (where it can effectively fight a BB or 2 Cruisers 8 LB's). It's great for that role. If you want offensive carrier support, go with the 2 Dev's, but you'll pay for it with points.

I only own 1 carrier in my 3,500 Chaos collection and it's a Styx.

-Zhukov

[Mazila]

For defencive attack craft in small fleets you are more likely to take devastation because Styx is too expensive. In fact, the ability to launch 6 strong wave of bombers makes Styx a perfect attack carier.

[Sigoroth]

The Styx is fine the way it is at 275 points. It's combat niche is supposed to be as a flagship for small fleets that need defensive attack craft (where it can effectively fight a BB or 2 Cruisers 8 LB's). It's great for that role. If you want offensive carrier support, go with the 2 Dev's, but you'll pay for it with points.

I only own 1 carrier in my 3,500 Chaos collection and it's a Styx.

The fact that you only own 1 carrier, which is a Styx, makes you ineligible to comment on its balance as far as I'm concerned. I don't mind paying over the odds for the ship, but 25pts over? C'mon, that's just silly. I've argued long and hard for many years that it's only worth 250 pts. Of course, I tend to cut things close to the bone with values, which I tend to think is the correct philosophy, since otherwise you get stupid price creep which makes a good number of ships redundant. So, on the tiny chance that I'm wrong (and it is a pretty small chance) and because of a general desire to see this ship overpriced for some reason, then I'm willing to come up to 260 pts, and would play them occasionally at that price, particularly if the Dev came down to 45cm.

[Zhukov]

Sig, did you take into consideration I might only own one carrier because I played enough games using Devs and even Depoilers that I discovered they just aren't as good in my opinion? When I was introduced to BFG by a buddy he loaned me ships from his Chaos fleet to play before I owned any ships of my own. I played almost 20 games involving Devs, Styx's, and Despoilers.

275 is a fine price for what you get in the Styx. The ONLY Heavy or Grand cruiser with 6 Launch Bays and with 60cm LFR weapons to boot needs to be that expensive. Period. Being in line with the Retaliator is ok with me (personally, that ship needs to be beefed up or pointed down a bit).

-Zhukov

[lastspartacus]

We all know ordnance is too powerful in general in this game.  I'm thinking.  Maybe the IN actually has it just right, besides the Emperor, in how it goes about ordnance.  I'm not saying bump other fleet's ordnance up to those prices, but a general price hike might be the answer we have been looking for.  In fleets always feel pretty balanced to me in the ordnance department

[horizon]

The Styx is my only carrier in my 1750pts (Chaos - Blue - Renegade) fleet.
The Devestation and Despoiler are my carriers in my 1750 (Chaos - Red - Renegade) fleet.

Long time since I used the fleets but the blue one is my favourite. But, seriously, the Devestation is the best carrier out there. Though in Warp Rift I once had an article called What About the Styx. Still funky I say.

[Sigoroth]

Sig, did you take into consideration I might only own one carrier because I played enough games using Devs and even Depoilers that I discovered they just aren't as good in my opinion?

Why would anyone assume this? It would be like assuming that someone who said that Hyundais are the best cars around has driven Ferraris, Rexxies, Aston Martins, etc. Completely illogical.

275 is a fine price for what you get in the Styx. The ONLY Heavy or Grand cruiser with 6 Launch Bays and with 60cm LFR weapons to boot needs to be that expensive. Period. Being in line with the Retaliator is ok with me (personally, that ship needs to be beefed up or pointed down a bit).

And yet direct comparisons with the alternative have proved you wrong.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

275 is too expensive for the Styx even if one compares it to the Retaliator which is also sad to say, overpriced and undergunned. The Retaliator should be priced somewhere around 250-260. If it had 45 cm WBs 275 would be justifiable.

[Zhukov]

Why would anyone assume this?

And that sir is also why it's completely illogical to eliminate somebody from the conversation outright purely because the carrier they have chosen for their fleet is the Styx and because of that, they don't personally own the others.

275 is a fine price for what you get in the Styx. The ONLY Heavy or Grand cruiser with 6 Launch Bays and with 60cm LFR weapons to boot needs to be that expensive. Period. Being in line with the Retaliator is ok with me (personally, that ship needs to be beefed up or pointed down a bit).

And yet direct comparisons with the alternative have proved you wrong.

Proved? The only thing I see is two different opinions with people such as Horizon supporting both arguments regarding which tactic is better. I stand by the fact the Styx should not be cheaper than the Retaliator when an argument can be made the Styx is already a better vessel.

275 is too expensive for the Styx even if one compares it to the Retaliator which is also sad to say, overpriced and undergunned. The Retaliator should be priced somewhere around 250-260. If it had 45 cm WBs 275 would be justifiable.

I agree with the fact the Retaliator needs to have 45cm WB's to justify it's 275 points. But even with this upgrade, it only brings the Retaliator in line with the Styx. Something to consider, now that Chaos will be allowed to have an Imp cruiser in it's ranks one needs to compare the cost of the Styx to the Mars. In which case me and Horizon stand side by side in saying the Styx should stay right where it is in it's points value.

-Zhukov

P.S. HEY NATE!

Do you think it would be wise to have the Imp renegade cruisers/escort squadrons suffer from a -1 Ld? Since they would essentially be pirated vessels (pirates suffer -1 Ld) with reduced crews from the initial takeover? It would create a disencentive to the Chaos player from taking this nifty option.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

No you can't take the Mars because if IIRC, NC armed ships are exempted from the rule.

Bringing the Retaliator in line points-wise with the Styx isn't really a problem if the guns of the Retaliator get bumped to 45 cm. More important would be the performance of both vessels.

[Zhukov]

No you can take any cruiser for 185 points or less. You just can't take any upgrade options for those cruisers.

If the Retaliator is not upgraded, then the Styx should be more expensive. Which means dropping the cost of the Retaliator to 255-260.

-Zhukov

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Really? I remember Nate mentioning no NCs as well. In any case, the Dom is 190 points and the Mars 270 so the point is moot.

Well, let's see. If I use Smotherman, the Retaliator actually should only come out to 240 points with the Styx coming out to 245. So yes, if the Styx does cost 250 to 260, the Retaliator should be at 245-255. Upping the WBs range should then put the Retaliator at par.