If you could make a Chaos ship legal, which one(s) would it be?

[Zelnik]

Flybywire, first of all THANK YOU for all the work you have done, and your honesty on the subject.

If that is truly the case, I strongly suggest you drop the idea, and move on to something that will not cause such issues. Stop trying to shoehorn in a cruiser that (as it seems) no one see's the point of, and work on some issues that GW said they were going to resolve before it fell to us.

If you don't remember, in the Plague fleet of nurgle PDF, it mentions that the other major powers of chaos also had fleets, and that they were led by great and terrible flagships of their own.  Why not make it more interesting and create one-to-three battleship vessels that can be created with a maximum of one cruiser kit and one battleship kit for Slaanesh, Khorne and Tzeench?  Not only do we expand the fleets of chaos in a way that corresponds to the fluff, but to the releases that GW has described.

[Sigoroth]

They've done this, or at least started. I think there's a lot of work yet to do, but it's a start.

[Zelnik]

I would love to see the work they have done. These ships have always tickled my fancy, especially the pleasure fleets of slaanesh!

[Sigoroth]

Click --> Powers of Chaos pdf

[fracas]

the basic assumption is that the original ship profiles are fine as is
some room to finagle points as well as "upgrade" options
but build on what there is rather than from scratch

i have no problems with this

[Zelnik]

.....Wow.
If this PDF becomes legal, i may actually be happy, and build an entirely new fleet for them.

Allow me to change my opinion about the Cerberus.  I am throwing in the towel on fighting it's addition.  It's not a BAD design, though i think all weapons should stick to 30, and have it keep the 30cm speed. This ship has a precedent to be in the game (as it has a standard cruiser counterpart).

The Hecate and Inferno i still resist. These ships are clashing in position with the Dev and Styx. I have the feeling that they were added on the basis of "make every bit combo count"

I LOVE the hero-ships, though i feel some tweaking is needed.

The Conqueror needs a little tone down from it's broadside battery strength. make the broadsides st 10, keep the dorsal strength.  a st 18 broadside is good enough without blowing things out of proportion. this gentle reduction can reduce cost by say, 10 points?

Wage of Sin: It's a great vessel, if expensive.  I can't really see a place to reduce it's cost, so great job guys

City of Light: <3

Vengeful Spirit: Not bad at all. please be specific as to what upgrades it may take.

[horizon]

Nice to see everyone thinks the same about the Cerberus.

[Zelnik]

Heh, consider me a 'begrudging supporter'.  I figure if the HA is going to add ships, you might as well add ones with precedent, not ones out of the blue. 

It's ironic, considering the Hecate and the Inferno are virtually identical to the Europa, which would only stand to improve the Book of the Void's position... but I am finding it hard to support ships that already have niche's filled.


Also: Bah to all of you, I LIKE the Acheron!

[lastspartacus]

I just really don't understand the absent hardpoint on the Acheron as an 'advanced' ship.  Definitly not for 190 points.

As to the Dev, I would MUCH rather see it increase in points, because I would happily pay it.  It going to 45cm would make it much less synergistic in the dev-dev-styx carrier support squadrons that are so fun to run.  200 will be fine.

Cerberus is anti fun, because it looks nothing like the Slaughter.  I agree, 30cm and 30cm weapons, or I'll have a darth against it like most folks do when lances in marine armies are mentioned.

[Zelnik]

What your getting out of the Acheron is reliable long range heavy lance support, something that the standard cruisers in the Chaos fleet lack.  It's not pricey, and it can deliver at long range.  If you wanted raw firepower, take a repulsive. 

Ironically, the Acheron is best used supporting slaughters, sending in it's long range lances after the withering broadside of the slaughter has removed shields.  it works quite well

[lastspartacus]

I'm not a real fan of the small amount of hits it can dish out for its price, but yes I can see how it would be handy against high armor targets.
My main problem isn't in how it plays, its the design.  Apparently advanced alien technology makes you forget about half the side of the ship
That just irks me.  Its underpowered for an HC, even if it is close to rightly costed.  Just taste is all.

[Zelnik]

staggered fire.  on vessels with large guns with high energy needs, you can't fire all the weapons without overloading your reactor. It's very similar to Tau railguns, they can't fire them all at the same time, and must 'cascade' their fire.

I never had a problem seeing it that way.. don't know why more people accept it.

[lastspartacus]

Mmm because other chaos vessels can manage as long or longer range with more hardpoints, mainly.

[Zhukov]

So first things first, the Acheron was considered "advanced" technology a LONG time ago. In "present times", it's not so much advanced, but reliable enough for enough Warmasters that Chaos as a whole have built more of them.

As for the Powers of Chaos document:

The character ships for the Despoilers are the "stats fit the model" we have been looking for!! Problem though, the Vengeful Spirit has no cool free upgrades and yet it's 20 pts more expensive than a standard Despoiler. Why? Is having an extra weapon slot when you redistribted the Launch Bay strength worth +20 pts when the firepower doesn't change at all? I would argue the base profile for the Spirit should be 400 pts like a Despoiler.

City of Light, way to cheap! Assuming you take the 420 Spirit as is now cost, with the amount of upgrades this ship posseses it should cost 500 pts! If you drop the Spirit to 400, then increase the cost of the City to 480 and I think it makes more sense.

Is the Wage of Sin too expensive? It's a Desolator (300 pts) with a bunch of Space Marine upgrades (worth 95 pts) and you decreased the lance range and added 4 Launch Bays for +35 pts. Is that reasonable?

Conqueror, I LOVE THIS SHIP'S PROFILE...... PICTURE!!! BUT it outguns the Planet Killer when both are firing both broadsides simultaneously. Tone it down, a lot, and increase its cost. It's WAY to friggin cheap.

Cerberus and Hectate, I like them, a lot. I saw it and I instantly added a box of Chaos Cruisers to my Christmas list

The Inferno is either too strong, or the Dev is too weak. But a 10 WB broadside at 60cm or 2 Lances at 60 cm seems to be a no brainer? Make the WB's 45cm range (or decrease the strength some) and you now have to make an interesting choice between the Dev and the Inferno.

These ships to me brings up an interesting point however, the Chaos Grand Cruisers. I feel whole heartedly the Chaos Grands are WAY to underpowered. The Cerberus KILLS the Executer in value (Cerberus: +8 WB's, +5cm speed,  Executer: +2 hits, +1 shield, +1 turret. Pretty even so far right? WELL then add in the fact you need an extra cruiser to field the Executer. Hehe now it's not so even!). And the Retaliator vs. the Hectate (Hectate: already 35 points cheaper, +5cm speed, outranges by 15cm, +8 WB's, Retaliator: +2 hits, +1 shield, +1 Turret. I think Hectate has an advantage already without including the extra cruiser requirement!!!) So that's something I think needs to be changed.

Also, I think Chaos should get 1 Imp cruiser and four escorts per 750 pts. Mixed fleets of Chaos and Imp renegades would be really fun to fight against. If taking that option, maybe the Imp vessel should suffer from a -1 Ld? (Kinda like Pirate fleets?)

-Zhukov

[horizon]

LS, drop it!!!

I have given you MULTIPLE posts & arguments why the Acheron is EXCELLENT for its point costs and DOES NOT NEED any change!!!

IT IS THE BEST MID - RANGE GUNNERY cruiser in the ENTIRE Chaos list. At 31-45cm it OUTSHOOTS every OTHER CHaos vessel.