If you could make a Chaos ship legal, which one(s) would it be?

[lastspartacus]

My only issue is, I am curious why Chaos cannot have  any official light cruiser classes.
It would add very little to their fleet, as they already have amazing cruisers.  A light would never be able to compete with a Slaughter for value, yet for variety I have constructed a Heretic class, as listed in...project nemesis I think.
I like it, its cute.

[horizon]

Yes yes true.

But wasn't it written in the aftermath of the 13th crusade that Chaos had build new vessels. I for 100% certainty know the Acheron was mentioned.


edit..
LastSpartacus.

All fleets have gaps and weaknesses and strenghts. A gap in the Chaos fleet is light cruisers. So no need to fill it.

However!!

Even now Imperial vessels turn renegade (not necessarily Chaos!!!) and fight other IN vessels. Such renegade vessels are easily lured into Chaos fleets.

So, you could end up with a Dauntless 1:1 profile in a Chaos fleet.

A governor or captain with a Dauntless going renegade is also very plausible.

[lastspartacus]

Im merely saying I see no fluff reason why chaos would be have light cruiser hulls among its ranks. 
Also, the inclusion of light cruisers fills no gaps for chaos.  They are much more dramatic for IN.


One thing I was looking over as well.  Even at 190 points, I noticed the Acheron has a severely undergunned broadside for any cruiser, the Carnage actually outshooting it overall 0.o

[horizon]

During the heresy there were no light cruisers build to go heretic.

Beginner mistake on the Acheron. It has the best gunnery in the 31-45cm range of the whole Chaos fleet.

Always keep in mind that 1 lance is 3 batteries at 30cm. So at longer range lances increase in strength.

Good,

Acheron some lances @ 60cm: str.2 focus at one side = str.6 batteries. Not impressive.

Now at 45cm it can suddenly focus:
2 (port) lances + 2 (dorsal) lances + 6 (prow) batteries
equals:
(2x3) + (2x3) + 6 =
6 + 6 + 6 = 18 weapon battery equivalent. From 45cm and down.

max values on focus plus max range for max power:

Carnage maximum battery = 16 focusable. (45cm)
Murder maximum battery = 10 focusable. (45cm)
Styx maximum battery = 12 focusable. (60cm)
Devestation maximum battery = 12 focusable (30cm)
Hades maximum battery = 16 focusable (45cm)
Slaughter maximum battery = 20 focusable (30cm)

So... only Slaughter has more total firepower in focus. Shorter ranged though. The Acheron is best at 45cm. And the Styx is best at 60cm (heh heh).

From this you can see how effective the Carnage/Acheron combination is. At 45cm this brings an immense battery area to bearing plus several lances.

[flybywire-E2C]

Where am I going with this? Chaos is not the be-all, end-all some fans make them out to be. They do not have the resources to design and construct new cruiser and battleship designs, though fluff has many examples of them finding and utilizing many ancient pre-heresy warships, some of unimaginable size and dimensions in more than one case. Except for the Planet Killer, every capital ship they own is stolen or subverted from the Imperium, and the vast majority of cases these are obsolete ships decommissioned due to design flaws or for possessing technology that can no longer be economically maintained. The Planet Killer was a one-off ship designed and constructed around a massive and extremely powerful artifact for the specific purpose of intimidation or destroying worlds when intimidation proved insufficient.

Well, Loyal Marine Chapters own ancient Venerable Battle Barges. That means that Chapters who went heretic did have the same ancient vessels and took them to the eye.

Exactly.

What does this mean? While we will be entertaining new cruiser hull ideas, it has to be something that is different from but closely correlates to the ancient Cypra Mundi pattern vessels Chaos would have access to. That means we are not entertaining “transitional” designs new to the game that are somewhere between the two, such as torpedo-armed 5+ prow cruisers and the like, or anything that has to be scratch-built or requiring multiple model hulls to make in any extent whatsoever. 

Hence the fact some of us said Chaos doesn't need new ships at all!

I personally was of the mind that Chaos doesn't need ANYTHING new. However, I'm not so much of a purist that I think the fans can't have new ships at all when there is so much demand for it, though I would prefer anything new be one-offs like the Acheron as opposed to open-ended classes a fleet can have a bunch of. The revised Hellfire will be rare on purpose, but there isn't any reason ideas like the Pillager and Hecate can't be relatively common. I am deeply opposed to cranking out a large line of new cruiser classes, but two or three of the Forum's favorites that don't violate the prerequisites listed previously should be okay provided all the HA's bless it.

Here’s an entirely separate but related issue coming only from me, meaning I have NOT discussed it with the other HA’s. I have always been bothered by the fact that the Vengeance GC’s weren’t given prow torps. While 6+ armor is a definite NO, what’s the feeling about giving these 6 prow torps as an option? Even if we do it, it should be expensive, and it will be available to ALL variants if we do it. Keep in mind I haven’t run this past the other HA’s yet. Thoughts?

Of course the prow should be kept at 5+ for them. Giving an optional torpedo at the prow is good. That means ditching the special critical hit rule for them (faq2010).

Question: When torps are available to the Vengeance Prow then it can also fit an exterminatus weapon to its prow. Agreed?

All of this is what's being questioned right now. Having prow torps means the prow crit rule is obviously abrogated, or a ship can choose to NOT have torps and keep the special rule. My thought process is that if the vengeance variants can have torps, then it can have an Exterminatus weapon as well, though it still follows all rules for such weapons and costs exactly the same price torps will, whatever that may be. Keep in mind that since these ships are NOT getting 6+ prows, they are also NOT getting Nova Cannon!

- Nate

[flybywire-E2C]

Yes yes true.

But wasn't it written in the aftermath of the 13th crusade that Chaos had build new vessels. I for 100% certainty know the Acheron was mentioned.


edit..
LastSpartacus.

All fleets have gaps and weaknesses and strenghts. A gap in the Chaos fleet is light cruisers. So no need to fill it.

However!!

Even now Imperial vessels turn renegade (not necessarily Chaos!!!) and fight other IN vessels. Such renegade vessels are easily lured into Chaos fleets.

So, you could end up with a Dauntless 1:1 profile in a Chaos fleet.

A governor or captain with a Dauntless going renegade is also very plausible.

Absolutely. However, this should certainly be rare. The FAQ allows a Chaos player to take one Imperial cruiser (not battlecruiser) of any class in the fleet as a renegade ship. Should this be more common, say one per 1500 points? I would say renegade Imperial cruisers should NEVER be more common than one per 1500 points in a Chaos fleet, though there isn't any reason why an Imperial fleet can't be taken in its entirely and simply be played as a renegade (not necessarily Chaos) fleet. If you use the pirate fleet list, you can even freely mix and match Chaos and Imperial cruisers as long as none of them exceed 185 points.

- Nate

[lastspartacus]

But you havn't explained the reasoning behind no light cruisers in chaos, or how it would fill weakness.
If there is some fluff reason as to why there are no old light cruiser hulls, so be it.  I find my Heretic class to be underwhelming and a fluff piece anyway, just for fun.

As to one per every 1500 points, Nate, that doesnt sound overpowered.  Specifically because, well, I would only do it for fluff.  I think it is a proven fact that Imperial ships only compete against chaos cruisers in a supporting battleline.  Chaos cruisers are just superior, one on one. 

[Vaaish]

Here’s an entirely separate but related issue coming only from me, meaning I have NOT discussed it with the other HA’s. I have always been bothered by the fact that the Vengeance GC’s weren’t given prow torps. While 6+ armor is a definite NO, what’s the feeling about giving these 6 prow torps as an option? Even if we do it, it should be expensive, and it will be available to ALL variants if we do it. Keep in mind I haven’t run this past the other HA’s yet. Thoughts?

Nearly missed this in here. While I don't mind seeing an option for the vengeance to gain prow torpedoes, I do NOT want to see these as standard and the price on the vengeance to get a boost. True, this is partly because I like to field vengeance and my 1500 point fleet takes two, but also because I find them quite capable in their broadside role. Adding prow torpedoes makes it tempting to run them head long toward an enemy for some firepower on the way in but exposes their 5+ armor and that's something which makes the design conflicted IMO.

TBH, they have good enough firepower that I don't really miss the lack of prow weapon.

[flybywire-E2C]

But you havn't explained the reasoning behind no light cruisers in chaos, or how it would fill weakness.
If there is some fluff reason as to why there are no old light cruiser hulls, so be it.  I find my Heretic class to be underwhelming and a fluff piece anyway, just for fun.

As to one per every 1500 points, Nate, that doesnt sound overpowered.  Specifically because, well, I would only do it for fluff.  I think it is a proven fact that Imperial ships only compete against chaos cruisers in a supporting battleline.  Chaos cruisers are just superior, one on one. 

In the background, light cruisers as a type of ship are a relatively recent development to meet the need of an increasingly overstretched Imperium. Chaos would have had little opportunity to steal very many, as there were no ancient ones to steal. Now fluff describes a Danutless in particular as going renegade during the Gothic War so it's not like Chaos doesn't have any CL's, but they don't have any Chaos ship type CL's, and they don't have very many modern Imperial cruisers as a whole.

On that note, I agree that one Imperial cruiser per 1500 points doesn't sound bad either, but I haven't run that past the HA's.

- Nate

[Mazila]

Always wanted to utilize more of those WB+lance bits so this is a mid-range cruiser with lances (prety much a carnage with lance armament)

190pts  Executor Class (looks like slaughterer but with different bridge)

Hits 8,moove 25cm,turn 45, shields 2, armor 5+, turrets 2

Port WB     10   45
Starboard WB 10   45
Port lance  2  45
Starboard lance 2 45

doing this from work so can't find the file with point costings, so correct me if i was wrong

[Sigoroth]

Really, can we ditch the Hellfire name. Seriously. It messes with the (cool) greek underworld theme. There're plenty of other names that you could use. Charon, Cerberus, Nyx, Thanatos, Cronus, Tartarus, Minos, Hypnos, Gorgyra, Erebus, etc (and these are just the cool ones). Out of these I recommend Cerberus as the short range of a heavy Slaughter combined with its ferocious firepower seems apropos of the famed hellhound.

[Masque]

Really, can we ditch the Hellfire name. Seriously. It messes with the (cool) greek underworld theme. There're plenty of other names that you could use. Charon, Cerberus, Nyx, Thanatos, Cronus, Tartarus, Minos, Hypnos, Gorgyra, Erebus, etc (and these are just the cool ones). Out of these I recommend Cerberus as the short range of a heavy Slaughter combined with its ferocious firepower seems apropos of the famed hellhound.

I'm in total agreement here.  Though, if the Cerberus name is used I'd like to see either the broadside or prow weapons get diminished a littled and it given a third dorsal lance.   

[flybywire-E2C]

Really, can we ditch the Hellfire name. Seriously. It messes with the (cool) greek underworld theme. There're plenty of other names that you could use. Charon, Cerberus, Nyx, Thanatos, Cronus, Tartarus, Minos, Hypnos, Gorgyra, Erebus, etc (and these are just the cool ones). Out of these I recommend Cerberus as the short range of a heavy Slaughter combined with its ferocious firepower seems apropos of the famed hellhound.

I'm in total agreement here.  Though, if the Cerberus name is used I'd like to see either the broadside or prow weapons get diminished a littled and it given a third dorsal lance.   

I can see using a different name than Hellfire, but we are not even looking at any 3-dorsal heavy cruisers at all.

- Nate

[flybywire-E2C]

Here’s an entirely separate but related issue coming only from me, meaning I have NOT discussed it with the other HA’s. I have always been bothered by the fact that the Vengeance GC’s weren’t given prow torps. While 6+ armor is a definite NO, what’s the feeling about giving these 6 prow torps as an option? Even if we do it, it should be expensive, and it will be available to ALL variants if we do it. Keep in mind I haven’t run this past the other HA’s yet. Thoughts?

Nearly missed this in here. While I don't mind seeing an option for the vengeance to gain prow torpedoes, I do NOT want to see these as standard and the price on the vengeance to get a boost. True, this is partly because I like to field vengeance and my 1500 point fleet takes two, but also because I find them quite capable in their broadside role. Adding prow torpedoes makes it tempting to run them head long toward an enemy for some firepower on the way in but exposes their 5+ armor and that's something which makes the design conflicted IMO.

TBH, they have good enough firepower that I don't really miss the lack of prow weapon.

I agree completely. Even if this gets approved (which is by no means to say it will), the standard profiles will remain unchanged, and the new FAQ rule allowing them to ignore prow crits will remain in place as well. What changes will be that this can be taken as an option for a given additional point value, and it by intent will be an expensive option as opposed to something so cheap it becomes an auto must-have.

My one point of contention is prow torps making the design conflicted. The Repulsive has been using prow torps forever (which is where the idea comes from), and that ship isn't very conflicted. Granted it has dorsal weapons, but these do little to make torpedoes any better, and they actually conflict each other if you consider BM's.  However, those three lances add much to its broadside WB's when up close, making these ships far more valuable abeam than they ever would be closing.

The point I'm making is that since torps don't really conflict how one optimally uses the Repulsive, I don't see how they would do so to the rest of the GC's. Even so, torpedoes will only be an option so those like you who don't want them won't have to take them and will get to benefit from having cheaper GC's that still have crit-protected prows.

- Nate

[Sigoroth]

Always wanted to utilize more of those WB+lance bits so this is a mid-range cruiser with lances (prety much a carnage with lance armament)

190pts  Executor Class (looks like slaughterer but with different bridge)

Hits 8,moove 25cm,turn 45, shields 2, armor 5+, turrets 2

Port WB     10   45
Starboard WB 10   45
Port lance  2  45
Starboard lance 2 45

doing this from work so can't find the file with point costings, so correct me if i was wrong

Ok, this is confusing. Firstly, there's already an official Executor class ship. It's a grand cruiser and has 6 broadside lances. Secondly the ship you've posted above has waaaay too much firepower for a cruiser. A Slaughter class cruiser has the highest broadside firepower of any cruiser or heavy cruiser in the game, but pays for it with its short range. This ship has +2WBs and also +15cm range on its broadside (its lack of prow weaponry is neither here nor there).

In fact, those broadsides are very similar to a Vengeance CG (-15cm range on the WBs) and there's further similarity to the Vengeance CGs in that you've used the name of another Vengeance type CG (Executor). Also there's no prow/dorsal weaponry, just like the Vengeance series CGs. This suggests you're thinking of one of them, but then, they're already official and you've given it a base cruiser hull and say it looks like a Slaughter. You're also posting it as a suggestion(?) which implies that you're not talking about one of the Vengeance CGs.

So. Confusing.