If you could make a Chaos ship legal, which one(s) would it be?

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

I don't mind the lances getting lowered but I really do like em Str 3 dorsal lances. 

[lastspartacus]

No doubt, but why would you ever take the Desolator, really?

[horizon]

Because it is fast, cool and has long range lances.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Cheap too if I keep the Desperation at 320. Then there's the Str 9 torps.

[flybywire-E2C]

Yes!

*Voss Prow Light Cruisers (Endeavour, Endurance, Defiant) should get a 6+ prow at no extra cost. These vessels are never used as they are. They die (I experienced and tried...).

<snip>

* Despoiler statistic change (PROW LAUNCH BAYS ).

<snip>

But, most 'broken' the voss prows.

Here are my thoughts on this. The Despoiler prow launch bays is something I commented on several years ago and promptly forgot about when I realized simply changing where some of the bays are located subtly alters the ship as far as its sensitivity to criticals (more chances of a crit breaking bays is offset by more bays still effective for a given crit). However now that it has come up again, I don’t have an objection allowing this as an option (moving one bay apiece from each broadside for a total of prow=2, port/stbd=3) for say +20 points.

As far as the Voss prows go, I REALLY like this, but here’s the resistance on this; it was one of the things we got a flat NO on from the designers. My proposal was based on design philosophy. The Voss cruisers were designed from the outset to be “cruisers but smaller,” as opposed to the Dauntless, which from the outset was always intended to be an “escort but bigger.” That’s why the Dauntless is marginally faster and has a heavy prow armament and marginal broadsides, whereas the Voss cruisers are the opposite.
I’ll repeat the recommendation I made at the time. As opposed to changing the base profile (which is anathema), it can be a refit in the notes for this model. Also, instead of it being something that can be paid for, I recommend it be free but cause a reduction in turning form 90deg to 45deg. This should NOT be a “pay to have the best of both.” I think it should be an either/or kind of choice by the owning player. This way the player decides if it turns more slowly for having a meaty prow, or sacrifices toughness for maneuverability.

Once again, I have NOT brought this to the HA’s yet so this is in NO WAY a push-down to the fans. On the other hand, Ray is back home safe and sound so expect to see more activity (and possible changes) from the HA’s.  I’ll post this on both the Imperial and Chaos ship threads to see what we get.

-   Nate

[flybywire-E2C]

So voss cruisers with 45* and a prow deflector? hmmm, I could see live for that. Pondering...

But the designers should be slapped for giving a no on prow armour for them. A clear example of overestimating the capacity of the vessels. I mean, the Defiant is (along the Hellebore) the most useless vessel ever.

Despoiler from how model is build:
prow launch bay str4
port/starboard launch bays str 2
port/starboard weapon batteries str 10 @ 60cm
dorsal lance str 3 @ 60cm lfr

Hi Horizon!   Gadzooks! You’re talking a complete re-write of the ship! Why aren’t you over here so I can yell at you in person!  

Personally, my Despoilers are modeled more to the profile than the picture; 2 launch bays and one WB a side instead of vice versa. Now I’m all about snapping off and re-painting a single bit on a model if that will fix it, I don’t know that fundamentally changing the model this way is the answer. Also, the model is already 400 points. Giving it longer-range prow lances and a bigger broadside is going to turn this thing into a monster! It will be an Emperor/Retribution wrapped in one, with a Desolator broadside in the prow! Who the heck needs a Planet Killer if I can have as many of these as I want?

The current profile lets you trade lances for torps. I say leave that as-is, leave the profile as-is, and add notes giving an option to trade some of its broadside launch bay strength to stuff into the prow. I’d say more than two bays in the prow fundamentally changes the whole feel of this ship.  

Also, the Despoiler is an incomplete and imperfect Chaos Battlebarge better represented by the Terminus Est with nine launch bays (three each side). There are plans to develop this angle at a later date, but we want to finalize what's on the table for now, and completely re-writing the Despoiler into a ship even more powerful than it is now is in my mind a really bad idea.

- Nate

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Same Launch Bay capacity. Less Lances (even though those were only short ranged) and an increase in broadside WBs by 4 basically adding 2 dice at most? Hardly more powerful.

[lastspartacus]

Agree with you that the despoiler is fine as is.  

Disagree that the voss light cruisers shouldnt be changed for no cost.  Seriously, i would only mildly consider them with a 6+ prow if they had no cost or stat downer.  They are inferior to the dauntless for more points.  

Finally, is there a fundamental reason why changing base stats is anathema to the HA?

[horizon]

More powerful? No way.

[Sigoroth]

Horizon's Despoiler is a good one.

Firstly, the Despoiler isn't terribly cost effective. Two Devastations are better and cheaper. So if the Despoiler were to be slightly upgraded then that's no biggie.

Anyway, Nate, what you've missed here is that while the proposed Despoiler gains in its extra broadsides it loses in the removal of the 4 prow lances. The current Despoiler could potentially fire a 7 lance salvo, with 12 WB offside left over. Now it can fire 10WB & 3L (10WB offside). It keeps the same amount of total AC, so no difference there. Less total firepower, just a clearer role (sit back and go broadside). Faster and more powerful than an Emperor, but more expensive and lacking the +1 Ld. Also agree that the Devastations lances should be reduced to 45cm range.

As for suggestions for new Chaos ships, well I've often been disappointed by the Chaos heavy cruisers. One is sadly overpriced (Styx), another is based on a cruiser that I dislike (Hades) and the last, while balanced, is really undergunned for a heavy cruiser (Acheron). I have made several heavy cruiser variants and would like to see one of those become official. The Hecate is much as described in the blurb in one of the BFG Mags, i.e., a heavy Devastation. The Charon is a heavy Carnage and the Cerberus is loosely based on the Slaughter. I would post the stats for them, but they're on my other computer which is currently in storage.

[Sigoroth]

Ok, got my computer out of storage and can now access my stored ship profiles. So for Chaos I find the CBs somewhat of a dissapointment, so I thought I'd add a few options here. I've continued the Greek underworld theme with the ship class names and have, to some extent, matched up the profiles to names. Note: each of these ships is conservatively priced. By which I mean they're costs have been bumped up to make up for the extra versatility they provide.

Cerberus Class Heavy Cruiser      190 pts

Hits - 8 Armour - 5+

Speed - 25cm Shields - 2

Turns - 45° Turrets - 2

Armament P+S WB P+S Lances Dorsal Lances Prow WB

Speed/Range 30cm 30cm 30cm 30cm

Strength 6 2 2 6

Arc L+R L+R LFR LFR

       

This hound of hell has a fearsome bite but is also on a very short leash.

Charon Class Heavy Cruiser      210 pts

Hits - 8 Armour - 5+

Speed - 25cm Shields - 2

Turns - 45° Turrets - 2

Armament P+S WB P+S WB Dorsal WB Prow WB

Speed/Range 45cm 60cm 60cm 60cm

Strength 6 4 6 6

Arc L+R L+R LFR LFR

       

Massed batteries and reach gives this ship the ability to ferry many unwilling souls to the afterworld

[Sigoroth]

Again, another heavy cruiser variant, this one originally based on the Hecate blurb found in BFG Magazine. I did however come up with some special rules for this class based upon its name only. This, of course, isn't much of a reason to include special rules on a ship in BFG, but I'll include them after the ship profile anyway for those interested:

Hecate Class Heavy Cruiser      250 pts

Hits - 8 Armour - 5+

Speed - 25cm Shields - 2

Turns - 45° Turrets - 2

Armament P+S L. Bays P+S Lances Dorsal Lances Prow WB

Speed/Range as craft 45cm 60cm 60cm

Strength 4 2 2 6

Arc - L+R LFR LFR

Hecate (the far darter) was the goddess of witchcraft (so lightning, etc - lances/WBs) and was accompanied by dogs (AC). She was the keeper of boundaries and goddess of crossroads, she haunted the night and frequented graveyards. She was surrounded by the wailing tormented souls of the dead and could sever the spirit from a man's body. She was also sometimes depicted as being a three-headed creature. One head of a horse, one of a dog, one of a lion.

Special Rules (260 pts)

You cannot have more than 3 Hecate class ships in your fleet. All Hecate class ships will form a single squadron, which no other ship class may join. Counts as a Daemonship with the Mark of Slaanesh, though not Slaaneshi. Before the 1^st turn, after deployment, one asteroid field, gas/dust cloud or small planet/moon chosen at random is swapped for a warp rift. Any Hecate class ship that does not start the game on table may move on from any warp rift at the start of the Chaos players 2^nd turn. It then acts normally in all regards and may go on special orders.

Famous Ships

Equus, Canis, Leo 

[Zhukov]

I would rather see a Heavy Cruiser based on the Murder variant. Upgrade the turret strength by one, the WB's from 4 to 6, and add 2 Lances at 45cm on the Dorsal mount. This would be cooooool.

-Zhukov

P.S. Retaliator > Exorcist and Acheron > Executor. The Chaos Grand Cruisers (Exorcist and Executor) are terrible. I primarily play Chaos and don't see why anyone would take these.

[lastspartacus]

Zhukov, you talking about the Acheron?  Its a murder upgrade to heavy cruiser.

And, you dont like the executor?  Ive found it works wonders as a daemon ship.  Its got the broadside armaments of an Apocalypse at shorter/longer range, depending on if you want to take the crit on the apoc.

[horizon]

The Acheron is like great. Has the most firepower of all Chaos ships between 31 and 45cm.

Sigoroth won't do a Murder style since he, well, loathes the Murder compared to the Carnage.
And the Hades is the heavy cruiser based on the Murder. Would be odd to have a heavy variant of the variant I feel. lolz