Hi Masque!
Thanks for the input!!
On page 17 it says the new cruisers can be used in "the Chaos fleet list." I'd specifically mention the 12th and 13th Black Crusade lists.
Sounds reasonable. Done.
On page 20 under Using Chaos Space Hulks it says "it counts as a battleship against a Chaos fleet list" and "there is no minimum point requirement or ship prerequisites". Which is it?
Both. It counts as a battleship for purposes of taking ANOTHER battleship, but you can have one without taking any cruisers first. For example, you can START building your fleet by taking a Space Hulk. However, if you want to add a battleship to your fleet, you need SIX cruisers first: three for the Space Hulk, then three for a “second†battleship.
Does the Tzeentch Warmaster intentionally give a max leadership of 10 while the others only give 9?
Yes.
The four power specific fleet lists have many poorly written sections. By a strict reading the number of grand cruisers you can have is based solely off the number of cruisers and heavy cruisers from the 13th BC list but no grand cruisers are actually in these new lists and thus can only be taken as reserves. There is also no limit to the number of heavy cruisers taken unless they are from the 13th BC list. As such a fleet entirely of Hecates is possible. There is no need to limit the number of cruisers from the 13th BC list to 12 when the total number of cruisers cannot exceed 12.
If you actually look at p.46 of Armada, which is the reference used in the fleet list, all of these ships are indeed listed, including restrictions specifically preventing a fleet of only Hecates. To think otherwise is a bit deep in the weeds but I guess we can clarify it. Good catch- wow.
Except for the Tzeentch list allowing max leadership of 10 and having a single warp beast upgrade I see no reason for these fleet lists to exist. You can't do anything with them you can't do with the 13th BC list with the new ships added. By choosing these lists you limit which marks you can take, how many daemonships you can take, and prevent yourself from using the Planet Killer (except as a reserve). Previously the Nurgle list allowed the Terminus Est which could only be taken in the 13th BC list through reserves. But now that you are allowed to take all the VBBs in any Chaos list what is the point?
A Plaguefleet document was already put together so we wanted to keep the theme going so that tailored fleets were easy to prepare and keep in theme. For example, Khorne as a rule is against magic so having a fleet full of Khorne demonships would technically be legal but not very themeful, so we made it difficult to do according to the Khorne fleet list.
The Nurgle list is a verbatim cut and paste of the Fanatic Plaguefleet list so I don’t know how it was changed. I will look into it. The other lists are copies of the first, except for details applying specific flavor. If you are saying the new fleet lists are MORE restrictive than the former lists with no added value, I guess we can look into that. The idea was to incentivize using the themed fleet lists, but based on your comments, we haven’t done that to a significant enough extent.
Finally, no, all of the VBB’s CANNOT be taken in any single Chaos fleet. In fact, except for the Conqueror, no more than one Chaos VBB can be used at a time because they must all be flagships of the fleet unless the Planet Killer is present. Only the Conqueror can be used in a fleet with another Chaos VBB, and even then not with the Wage of Sin.
On the other hand, the generic Chaos BB (Vengeful Spirit) can be used in any fleet (even multiple copies if desired), but that was intentional.
I would suggest making all the VBBs except the generic one only available in the god specific lists (except with reserves). I'd also consider making some kind of special thing for each fleet. The warp beasts are a good start. Finally, I would actually list which cruisers, heavy cruisers, and grand cruisers are allowed in each fleet. I would not simply give them access to all of them. This could be used to help add flavor to the fleets by making them take ships that fit their theme. I would probably also put any new cruisers and heavy cruisers that make the cut in the god specific fleet lists and not simply add them to the 12th and 13th BC lists. They could still be taken as reserves in all the other lists that way.
That actually seems like a pretty good idea. We didn’t want to tailor it down so specifically that we pick and choose which cruisers get used because that would involve more playtesting than anyone has time for, but the rest of this is brilliant.
As for the new cruisers...
The Hecate seems fine.
OMG a compliment!! <faints>
The Cerberus is obviously making nobody happy. I'd suggest something like this. Take a standard Slaughter. Remove one lance from each side. Put the two lances on top (keeping the 30cm range). You end up with far more focusable firepower in front, a little more on a single broadside, and a little less on the offside. The new ship can keep pace with other Slaughters and will do a bit more damage on the way in but doesn't have more total firepower than the basic Slaughter. Charge 190 points and call it good.
This was becoming too much of a headache, and in the end the Chaos fleet doesn’t need it so we got rid of it. It’s gone.
The Inferno presents a serious design problem with the limitations that no Chaos carrier may cost less than 190 points and no Chaos cruiser may cost more than 190 points (the cost of the cheapest heavy cruiser). Since it has to cost the same as the Devastation it needs to fill a significantly different role. I would suggest up-gunning it and dropping all it's ranges down to 30cm, maybe 45cm on the prow.
I have another alternative in mind but I'd like a little more info on what would and wouldn't be allowed for a new ship. Is the 190 point minimum for any carrier or only carriers with at least 4 launch bays? Can a new cruiser require some conversion work if it only requires a single cruiser hull?
A new ship has to be built right out of the 2x plastic cruiser box using nothing but glue. If it can’t be made that way, we can’t make it official.
Because the Inferno was becoming another elephant consuming more time than it was worth, we killed this off as well. We decided to replace this with the Emasculator from Planet Killer Magazine in 2001. To me the ship is meh, but it’s well-balanced and has stood up to a decade of playtesting.
- Nate
