If you could make a Chaos ship legal, which one(s) would it be?

[flybywire-E2C]

Here's the caveats:

1. Preference will be on cruiser designs that actually made it into BFG magazine, Fanatic, etc., but anything  is on the table.

2. NO light cruisers! I know we all love them- I do too and even built one. If Chaos wants a CL, go hijack a Dauntless (more to follow in the FAQ).

3. NOTHING larger than a battleship! No 14HP+ monstrosities! However...

4. ...if Chaos could jack a Space Hulk from the Orks, how would the profile change?

5. No, we don't need another Planet Killer! Which means...

6. ...no special weapon mechanic! "This cruiser is equipped with a Wave Matter Motion Destroyer: If it hits a targget less than 30cm away, roll 2D6. On a roll of 12, the target is destroyed! On a roll of 2, the Wave Matter Motion Destroyer causes the firing ship to take 2D6 Fire criticals!" Yeah, nothing like that.

Well, that's it. Tell me what you think!


- Nate

[Zelnik]

I know i am breaking the rules here...

But i would like the Khornate Hulk.  Not as shooty as the ork hulk, but dead killy in boarding.

[horizon]

For Chaos?

Well, before adding a new ship I would fix the stats for the Despoiler. Swap the battery & lance on the Devestation (str.6 wb @ 60cm port/starboard and str2 lance prow @ 30cm lfr).

[tinfish]

I'd just like an option for the Desolator to take weapons as seen - 6 lances per broadside. There was an option for +50pts talked about a few years ago.

[Zelnik]

Heh, and totally ruin the whole point of the ship. I always viewed the firing of ships that have more guns then shots as 'staggered' fire, not all cannons firing at the same time. 

[Caine-HoA]

There are a lot of Vessals where you dont exactly see what you get gamewise, so i dont really see much sense in picking out a few examples and say i want 6 lances on the battleship...

On the topic:
I think chaos already has the best options for different cruisers in the whole system. I dont see what cruiser type should be added, i dont think they need one.

[horizon]

Exactly, thus change the exisiting ones into how they would be better balanced and cool.

[Zhukov]

If I remember correctly, most players agree that Chaos cruisers are wonderful individually, but are hard to work together with other types. So I guess this is a thread to try and build a cruiser that corrects this problem?

My idea has no name, just stats.
Pts: 180
Hits: 8
Speed: 25cm
Turns: 45*
Shields: 2
Armour: 5+
Turrets: 2


Armament:                              Range/Speed:        Firepower/Strength:         Fire Arc:

Port Lance Battery:                  45cm:                   2:                                   Left Arc
Starboard Lance Battery:          45cm:                   2:                                   Right Arc
Port Weapons Battery:             30cm:                   6:                                   Left Arc
Starboard Weapons Battery:     30cm:                   6:                                   Right Arc
Prow Weapons Battery:            60cm:                   6:                                   Left/Front/Right Arcs

+1 Dice to All Ahead Full

I think this can be paired very effectively to Murder, Carnage, or Slaughter. Even on it's own or in pairs, this is very good.

-Zhukov

[Caine-HoA]

Could anyone explain to my why chaos cruisers would work worse with each other than imperial cruisers? I never got that idea...

Just tell me what you think makes imp cruisers together better than chaos cruisers together.

I only see two things here:
- Nova Cannons as several of them combined are A LOT more useful than one.
- And the availability of light cruisers for imp lists as it gives aditional options so save expensive cruisers with cheap ones in a squadron

but in case of the usual cruisers i dont see the big advantages of imperial cruisers described everywhere.

[Zhukov]

With the exception of the carriers:

Its typically a good idea to have WB and Lance combinations. With the exception of the Lunar, which works really well in pure squadrons, the other three Imp cruisers have a harder life in pure squadrons. The usual thought is to pair up a Dominator or Tyrant with a Gothic to get the WB-Lance combo. Even if one ship is destroyed, the other still has enough FP on its own to hopefully handle the adversary. Whereas with two Lunars, if one is destroyed, the remaining vessel probably does not have the strength to go one on one with any cruiser.

With Choas the problem is this: the ships don't support each other well at all. The basic cruiser hulls are really effective when in pure squadrons (Carnages have enough WB to almost warrant not needing a Lance armed buddy. Murders are at a real disadvantage in general.), but nobody likes pairing up a Murder with a Carnage and pretty much everyone agrees that the Slaughter will always be the odd one out in every situation. If you have the Heavy Cruisers supporting the cruisers, then you can achieve the WB-Lance combo to a degree but with the basic cruiser hulls, there is no incentive to mix a Murder and Carnage or a Slaughter with anything. I think the vessel I have proposed, which can be modeled with the bits from the plastic cruiser kit (a WB sprue and a two Lance turret for each side), is something that can support the other ships really well.

-Zhukov

[horizon]

Chaos does not need a Lunar variant.

Even if I never heard the argument of Chaos not working together it is of course very Chaos of not working together.

[Caine-HoA]

Sry but i dont see your problem why shouldnt a Devastation work well with a Murder or Carnage, you have your WB Lance Combination there even at higher range and speed than Imp cruisers have. (higher range speed and in some cruisers firepower for their points dont get worse when you have two of them) On the second squadron you can combine a Murder with a Acheron oder Hades making a good pair as well. And then you complain about not beeing able to combine tha slaughter? Even Imps light cruisers lack the spee of that cheap ship. Ok you cant combine it but where is the problem? Its luxury to have it not a disadvantage.

A disadvantage is having a ships thans even slower than your rest of the fleet like Imps battleships (who cant even turn if only shot at... thats the most stupid rule ever, thay should be able to turn in the second movement when they reach 15cm in total).
What i want to say with that is that chaos even can combine their cruisers with a fast battleship, so there are enough ways of combining ships for chaos.

[horizon]

Talkin about mutual support:
2x Acheron
2x Carnage
2x Devestation
1x Desolator

All abeam, batteries from 60cm, lances from 60cm. Increasing on 45cm. Launch bays.

[Harrypotter]

A disadvantage is having a ships thans even slower than your rest of the fleet like Imps battleships (who cant even turn if only shot at... thats the most stupid rule ever, thay should be able to turn in the second movement when they reach 15cm in total).

Or turn when they have completed their maximum possible move i.e. 10cm etc.

[Zhukov]

Wow, talk about a bunch of people who didn't read and comprehend my post on this subject. I really don't feel like repeating myself on several things I said. Did anyone even read when I said I was only talking about the basic cruiser hulls??

@Horizon: Technically, they do have a Lunar variant, it's the modified Murder already in the rules. I posted this idea for a ship because it's distinctly different from the Murder variant in several regards: WB instead of Lances to the Prow, they can shoot LFR, and the Broadside batteries are shorter range but slightly stronger, not to mention the +1 AAF.

@Caine: I guess this post is an explanation for why I said "with the exception of carriers" in the first sentence of my post. Carriers don't mix well in squadrons of gun line cruisers because they have zero incentive to go on Lock-On with the other cruisers over Reload Ordnance. IMO, Chaos carrier weapons are purely for the "luck shot". Surely you can see why having only gun armed cruisers in squadrons have an advantage in this specific regard? And talking about speed issues, the Slaughter isn't at a disadvantage?? It's novelty is only really used in best case circumstances as a mop up/reserve cruiser where it's speed can catch anything not killed in the first pass or if you have a fleet of nothing but Slaughters for gun ships and you race them into the heart of the enemy (with at least one supporting carrier and some escorts duh!). Other than this, it has zero advantage to the other squadron/fleet options except for use as bait.

I realize that every fleet was designed with holes in mind. But does this ship, essentially an alternate Murder variant, really break the feel for Chaos in your opinions?

-Zhukov