Public repository for completed new rules from BFG HA's

[tinfish]

If the Protectors were 190 - 200 I would be happy enough. I would rather see the points go up a bit than have the weapons neutered. If the cruisers are ineffective no one will use them and the 3 Explorer spam will continue to be the only effective Tau fleet.

[horizon]

Hmm, not really. The problem ain't the Explorer really. It is the fact the Hero is added to defend them. And Merchants are not taken.

3 Explorers are toast when an enemy brakes through.

Also, we are talking the FW fleet here. The GW feet is so darn expensive (I mean the price of 3 explorers is almost a complete FW fleet).

I don't think comparing GW-FW is needed here. The GW needs a 'fix'. So lets not create a fleet compared to a non-fixed fleet. Because then you cannot create the GW fleet as the FW is balanced wrongly then.
Or so.

[Vaaish]

Based on the fluff we have, the Tau are inferior at least gunnery wise to IN. I'd rather see weaker weapons than higher points. As Horizon says, it is making them both strong gunnery and strong ordnance.

[KivArn]

Tau fleet -- i really hope this isn't the final version as said in the pdf title...


Custodian, good ship, add a deflector for 15 points and i'll be ecstatic (The deflector is used in diving into the warp.. it makes sense for all the new vessels to have it...)

Protector: Is there any need for the variants? The second ship is much stronger than the first.
Fix the first to have Front arc weapons only and give it a 90* turn and it'll be fine

Emissary: Again, having so many variants is kinda weird. It's akin to having a lunar class cruiser with 3 different weapons options... it still looks the same yet each ones different.
Drop the ion cannons... there are non on the ship, there should be non in the rules.
Either way though, it's still useless...

Castellan, i'll go with that

Warden.. you'll never make me happy without the twin ion cannons

Composition, drop the limit on protectors... it's pointless anyway.
Having to take a Kor'O to take protectors does not fit with the fluff of the fleet, and seems ridiculous anyway.

EDIT: Oh man... i've just seen that you have to take an Aun as well for a protector!!!!!!!!! Seriously what was the thinking behind these 2 decisions for the composition.

[tinfish]

I always thought the Tau were supposed to be a high tech race who use advanced weaponry and vehicles - technology lost to the Imperium. In 40K (which I haven't played in years) the Rail Guns and Ion Cannon are generally more powerful than Imperial weapons - even the basic rifle is more powerful. The army is full of drones to aid targeting etc.
The BFG fluff was about the original ships being an explorer fleet, not a battle fleet - hence they were relatively weak. The FW ships are supposed to be the next evolution of the fleet.

The fleet has downsides. Low hit points, restricted fire arcs, no assault boats, no teleport attacks. It doesn't have the speed of (any) Eldar or even Chaos, no long (60cm) weapons. Even the Imperials have Nova cannon - and Tau cruisers are the only ones that can be crippled by 1 direct hit.

I doubt anyone would scream cheese playing against this fleet, Eldar and Necrons have that covered. I have played a few games with the wip list and I honestly think my Chaos fleet is more powerful.

<edit>

I think there has to be a Protector variant. Would you play Imperials if there was a Lunar and a Lunar and a Lunar ??
It looses IC range and has more limited fire arcs & less missiles, but it probably should cost 190. 90 degree turns... I'd pay for that.

Emissary - there are two big gun barrels near the wing tips and a third under the nose - it should have 3 IC's

[KivArn]

I think there has to be a Protector variant. Would you play Imperials if there was a Lunar and a Lunar and a Lunar ??
It looses IC range and has more limited fire arcs & less missiles, but it probably should cost 190. 90 degree turns... I'd pay for that.

Like all those different versions of the strike cruiser in the marine fleet . There's always the hero as well, that way you can have some variation if you want. The older model attack cruiser and the newer, more nimble, attack cruiser (if it had 90* turns)

Emissary - there are two big gun barrels near the wing tips and a third under the nose - it should have 3 IC's

Only if they're fixed forward (or front arc at any rate..) and it recieves 90* turns

[Vaaish]

I always thought the Tau were supposed to be a high tech race who use advanced weaponry and vehicles - technology lost to the Imperium. In 40K (which I haven't played in years) the Rail Guns and Ion Cannon are generally more powerful than Imperial weapons - even the basic rifle is more powerful. The army is full of drones to aid targeting etc.

not necessarily. Tau on the ground generally have longer ranged weapons but overall they are not superior to IoM outside of the railgun and their missile systems. They get a bit more of a boost from the markerlight too. If you look at Tau infantry armor, the best they have is the crisis and broadside suits, both of which are the rough equivalent of IoM marine gear. Most of their gear is about on par with IG stormtroopers and their vehicles aren't much to look at either outside of the ion cannon and railgun. While it is true that their basic armament is stronger than the basic IG armament, it seems to be less of a capability issue as it is a need for the IoM. Marine bolters can become significantly more powerful and just as long ranged simply by changing ammo type. IG lasguns can fire hotshot to boost AP considerably though at the cost of range. Even the IoM plasma weapons have a boost over their Tau counterparts. What that seems to indicate is that the IoM is just as capable of producing weapons on par or exceeding the capabilities of Tau equipment, but there just isn't the need with the number of bodies the IoM can throw at a problem.

That seems to translate into the space combat realm too, though the divide is much greater. Initially, yes, the tau were fighting without dedicated warships and they paid for it. That sparked the Lar'Shi class which is a passable warship fluff wise. More recently the Kor'or'Vesh came into play which still has inferior hull strength to the more advanced races and weaker overall firepower which perform better, but still aren't on even terms. What this comes down to is I'm not seeing any reason for the sudden shift to make Tau highly shooty and ordnance heavy. Tau is already a solid fleet, it doesn't need a boost in power.

I know this may come off as pushing for my own fleet, but seriously, we can't change the stats on the endeavour class, but we can make up a whole new list and and stats for Tau?

[Commx]

How did the Tyranids lose versatility?

- Nate

In the 2010 FAQ, it was determined that all of a Tyranid's Evolutions are 'campaign only' without specific permission. This will mean they will only be used in some 'friendly' games at best, and never again in 'competitive' environments. One of the reasons given by the HA for this was that their many options would make it confusing for their opponent as there was no way to identify these changes. And yet, the Kroot Warsphere now possesses four different types of upgrade which are similarly 'invisible'.


[quote = Eldar Haven Criticals]Repulsion Field Off-Line. The station loses ability to maintain position in space. Until repaired, the station drifts 5cm toward the nearest celestial phenomena and loses ability to ignore blast marker or solar phenomena effects. It‟s armor value is reduced to 5+ until repaired.[/quote]
The Haven already starts with an armour value of 5+, so the last sentence does not actually do anything.

[horizon]

Hi all,

the Emissary model does not have Ion Cannons.

Long time ago I exchanged mails with the model designer. Specifically on the Protector:

* Stubs along the prow are railgun batteries (1 on each wing tip, 5 in the middle) All Fixed Forward.
* Large turrets on top = Ion Cannon = flexible mount (LF / RF)
* Small turrets = anti ordnance (all angles covered like fluff says)
* Large bay underneath = Manta bay
* Small square holes along wing = bays which fit the Orca drop pod (= larger then Barracuda, thus these are fighter bays.
* Small holes round in prow = missiles

Going from that the Warden does have railguns & 1 ion cannon, never 2. The Castellan railguns and missiles. The Emissary no Ion cannon but fixed railguns, missiles and 2 launch bays. Custodian 4 Manta Bays. Not 8.


On the aun'el for a Protector. I guess my mind refused to registrate that,,,


I fail to understand why some of you do not see the wrongness of this Tau fleet. I mean, background wise and statwise I do not agree with the Forgeworld list as it has little imagination. But through all it is a mighty playable and well balanced list.
So I would only change this into a total different fleet, not an upgraded fleet. With different I mean a fleet with 90* turns on the Emissary & Protector. 25cm speed on Emissary, Castellen and Warden. All Railguns fixed forward, some at 45cm. Ion Cannon only 30cm (this was specifically stated by Bob Henderson in the past: Tau should not get 45cm ion cannon, maybe only on a Custodian). Much less launch bay. Custodian classified as a grand cruiser.

But now this Tau list sees an upgraded Custodian & Protector. These two are the problem, not the other three.

This list can outshoot & out ordnance every other fleet. Even the weak broadsides and boarding weakness is gone. What remains is the lower hits (like Eldar).

Only Chaos has longer ranged weapons. The IN only a select few vessels plus an unreliable nova cannon. Nids can do some 45cm as the odd Ork vessel and a Marine barge.
(Also Strike Cruisers, Dark/Craftworld/Corsair Eldar, IN light cruisers are ships with 6 hits which can be crippled in one shot or less).
On speed. 20cm overall plus an escort on 25cm (negating the Emissary as I won't use this variant) is average in the game. Not the best but also not the worst. The speed missiles make up for a lot of that.

I ran this list along my opponents (one plays Eldar, Ork, IN, Chaos, the other Chaos and Tau FW) and the inititial reaction is that is just unbalanced fleet.

The fleet list itself is marred with noodles. Kor'o & aun on a Protector is just a no go. The Protector limit pfft. The mixing with the SG list needless.

We need to face the fact that there are only a very few players with mixed fleets, most with a Forgeworld only fleet and another part with the GW only fleet.

[Caine-HoA]

In many aspects i think horizon is correct.
Im not sure if the List is too strong as is would be now, but i think as well that the corrections take place in the wrong parts of the fleet. More 90° maybe more 25 cm fit the concept of new ship designs with lower structure (6 and 4 hits). If the smaller ships (emissary) are made worth ist points noone will only use protectors, further e.g. i dont understand why in a FW fleet in most battles there can only be 3 wardens (as the Custodian is the only ship who can bring them in).
So with keeping the emissary a piece of junk and making only one escort available of corse the players chose to play many protectors, there are simply no other options. I think thats the only problem with the FW-List.
The GW List is a little more versatile but still has the Merchant is junk problem, of corse players take only explorers and heroes that way...

Change the smaller ships that are not taken by players rather than tinkering at those who are already played.

Just for the fun ive to say i do have a mixed fleet :-D

[tinfish]

I think some people need to play a few games with them before any more changes are made. Theorygothic (invented a new word) is all fine and well, but nothing beats playing a few games.

Play a game, swap fleets and play against them. In the games I have played they didn't seem overpowered. I had no answer to Dark Eldar screaming past me and sitting on my tail - the Protector with more batteries will help a bit there, against necrons my opponent failed most of the target priority rolls, forcing him to shoot at escorts, then failed to brace when I shot back. My fleet was crippled at the end, if he had taken more cruisers rather than the tomb ship I would have been in real trouble. None of the regular BFG players at the club thought they looked too powerful and my opponent had no complaints.

[KivArn]

[The bit about the email and fleet ideas]

I remember that email ,

and yes... i'd much prefer a whole different fast and manoeuvrable tau fleet as something new and different. With non of the silliness that exists in this one!

I'd be quite happy with 90* turns, fixed forward weapons, etc. I see the new tau fleet as a battlefleet akin to some of the startrek dominion/defiant battles. Where they close in for an attack run, sweep past, then turn around for another shot. Not staying relatively stationary and shooting the hell out of things.

[flybywire-E2C]

The Tau Commerce Protection Fleet had some misspellings and other minor errors corrected concerning the Emissary and the Demiurg cutting beam. The files are stored in the same place here:

https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0Bw_dULEfC3rbYzUyNjQzZTAtMDZiMS00ZjRlLWJjNzMtYTE5YmNjZjdjODQ1&hl=en

Nate

[horizon]

@ Tinfish, I can do this theory since I played many games with the FW list. It is balanced. Thus if I see changes to those vessels I can see pretty quick if something gets stronger or weaker.

So... new version....

reading...

Custodian: no change
Warden: no change
Protector: no change
Emissary: 25cm speed and prow deflector option
Castellan: no change

Fleet List: no change


So... we improved a ship a bit, added no changes to the fleet list so I still give a thumbs down on it.

Well, the Emissary, it should have 90* as well. So fix that 45* typo as well.

The fleet remains too strong/

The fleet list still has the clunky-wrong-bad-Kor'O&Aun requirements for the Protector (and to lesser extend Custodian).


So, Nate (or someone else from the HA) did you ready any of our concerns and opinions?

General on the prow deflector:
This has nothing to do with the shape of the ship. Prow deflectors are a manner of doing long warp dives and are shields layered in a certain way.

[tinfish]

I had a proper read of the pdf last night and noticed something.
In the fleet list it under Cruisers it says 'It may contain up to two Protectors for every 500 pts of Tau vessels in the fleet'

Literally this means I can only take 2 Protectors in a 1500 pt fleet - I need to buy 1000 pts of ships to be allowed 4, but I can only afford 2. In this same fleet I can take 2 Explorers and 2 Custodians.

Should it not read 'You may include 2 Protectors per 500 points of value of the fleet' or something like that. The Custodian could be read similarly.