Rogue Traders draft rules for BFG

[BaronIveagh]

There is some fluff of old (hulls of) ships being towed. Some were also lost (in the warp) en route to their 'resting place'. Maybe all you need is a specialised tow-ship (or whatever one cares to call it)?

Ok, but are you going to have it towed back every time that the ship needs to put into drydock?

[horizon]

Just checked the book Planetary Defence section and fleet selection. It is nowhere written that they (SDM) can do warp jumps but is written in both places that the system ships/vessels defending a planet cannot do a warp jump.

System Defence Monitor.

So the assumption they cannot jump is very logical and most supported.

But not every system has a shipyard.  So they'd have to get them there somehow, since they're too big to fit inside anything short of a Ramilies.

Yep, tow ships for such systems. And otherwise only smaller ships. A ramilies could have them attached easily I think.

[BaronIveagh]

Yep, tow ships for such systems. And otherwise only smaller ships. A ramilies could have them attached easily I think.

But that flies in the face of how the warp works. If you have two ships in contact in the warp, they intersect each other's space.  When they both come back into the materium, they're fused together.  This is the (current fluff) way (among others) space hulks begin to form.  They'd have to both be inside the same Geller field, which only extends a few meters outside the ship.  So the only way a ship can transport another ship is internally.  Actually towing another ship through the warp would be suicidal, as they would both either be totally fused together, or be torn apart by the stresses on their individual frames.

Admittedly, how the Stryxis get around this with their caravan ships isn't clear, as is lampshaded in Edge of the Abyss, page 78 'How they are able to do this without blowing themselves into the vacuum of space is anybody's guess'.

[horizon]

It is well established Ramilies Starforts are "towed".

And if that tow is only "in-system" then frick it: no SDM allowed in  system without shipyard.

[Plaxor]

It always seemed to me that the reason space hulks exist is for the same reasons oil and water don't mix.

Entropy increases when the two substances cease to be mixed, I.E. Immatterium becomes more disordered when the ships amalgamate together.

Presumably this means that so long as there was enough energy being input into the system (the ships towing through the warp) then you would be fine, but this would mean a shit-ton more power than normal. I would think that these tow-ships have no weapons and instead sacrifice better engines, weapons systems, and possibly a lot of secondary systems to maintain significantly larger warp drives and Gellar fields to be able to do this.

From this it means that it is not so absurd that ships get towed, but likely the jumps would have to be short, with long wait times, probably only 5ly at a time, rather than the hundreds ships can perform normally.

[BaronIveagh]

System Defence Monitor.

So the assumption they cannot jump is very logical and most supported.

Actually, I looked back in my blue book to double check and it's just 'Defense Monitor'.  I wonder where we all started calling them system defense monitors from?

And if that tow is only "in-system" then frick it: no SDM allowed in  system without shipyard.

From the way I read the entry in Armada and BFGM, I always took it that they were in system tugs that a space station like a Ramilies would require in bulk, since they're mentioned alongside system ships.  Logically (if such a word can be applied to 40k) they would tow the starfort to the location it's jumping from, dock and ride out the trip, then tow the starfort into position on arrival. 

[Plaxor]

Actually, I looked back in my blue book to double check and it's just 'Defense Monitor'.  I wonder where we all started calling them system defense monitors from?

He's right. Weird....

[commander]

System Defence Monitor.

So the assumption they cannot jump is very logical and most supported.

Actually, I looked back in my blue book to double check and it's just 'Defense Monitor'.  I wonder where we all started calling them system defense monitors from?

And if that tow is only "in-system" then frick it: no SDM allowed in  system without shipyard.

From the way I read the entry in Armada and BFGM, I always took it that they were in system tugs that a space station like a Ramilies would require in bulk, since they're mentioned alongside system ships.  Logically (if such a word can be applied to 40k) they would tow the starfort to the location it's jumping from, dock and ride out the trip, then tow the starfort into position on arrival. 

Armada pdf, copy paste:
The greatest advantage of the Ramilies by far is that its powerful generators can erect a warp-bubble over
the entire structure enabling it, with the aid of seventeen navigators and an attendant fleet of tugs, supply ships, warships and system craft, to enter the Warp and be towed to different star systems.

See, towing is viable, even through the warp.

[BaronIveagh]

Armada pdf, copy paste:
The greatest advantage of the Ramilies by far is that its powerful generators can erect a warp-bubble over
the entire structure enabling it, with the aid of seventeen navigators and an attendant fleet of tugs, supply ships, warships and system craft, to enter the Warp and be towed to different star systems.

See, towing is viable, even through the warp.

Yeah, but if you read it that way, it means that the system craft are traveling through the warp with it, which directly conflicts with Bluebook, page 144 that System ships are incapable of interstellar travel.  The only tug I've been able to locate anywhere in 40k fluff is the inter-system tug, a non-warp capable system craft, mentioned in the Rogue Trader rpg (no stats given).  One thing that has gotten me thinking: the navigator is what determines how fast a ship travels through the warp to it's destination (unless you're doing a calculated warp transition) so neither the plasma drive not the warp drive provide actual propulsion at all in the warp.  If the two things are not providing any propulsion, why would you tow anything to begin with?

And I think I've found the root of our SDM quandary: Andy Hoare.  He does it in the Gerrit RT books and again in the sections of the Rogue Trader RPG main book he wrote.  I suspect that it's bled into our usage unconsciously.  And, a word of caution, he's also the author of the section of Planetstrike that claims that SCs are armed with lances, so take his thoughts on BFG as you will.

[Plaxor]

Movement in the warp is powered by the warp currents. The navigator simply steers the ship around stuff.

I guess that could mean that the navigator is actually moving the vessel. Although I always thought that the ship somehow moved itself and the only reason for a navigator was that they could perceive the warp/astronomicon, and therefore steer around stuff/to where they were going.


Where is my Rogue Trader book? Gah!

[horizon]

As it says:

It (Ramilies) creates a warp bubble around the tugs. Problem solved of tugs being system ships being non warp capable.

[BaronIveagh]

As it says:

It (Ramilies) creates a warp bubble around the tugs. Problem solved of tugs being system ships being non warp capable.

Yeah, but why would they be tugging in the warp to begin with?  Plasma drives make no difference in the warp. 

And, while that does explain how non-warp capable ships can accompany the Ramilies, it still doesn't explain how a system with no shipyard gets it's defense monitors.  I know in Nightbringer they mention that they're sending their defense monitors back to be mothballed due to age and the Monitors in Rogue Star leave the system to be secretly refit by the Tau, though it's possible in that case that they left by gravity hook and got drives from the Tau installed in them so they could jump without them later in the book...

[Golgotha]

With the fluff, warp tugs are actually mentioned in a previous Black Library publication, Shadow Point.  After the battle with the Ork Roks is completed the Lord Solar Macharius is sent forth on a new mission, a discussion ensues as to how the remainder of the system will be cleansed.  The fleet that is en route to do the cleansing includes defence monitors on a warp tug.

[horizon]

Ah BaronI, again a great example on how BL writers mess everything up with their books. BL editors don't care enough.

@ Golgotha, never read Shadow Point but from what I heard a good book.

[BaronIveagh]

Ah BaronI, again a great example on how BL writers mess everything up with their books. BL editors don't care enough.

@ Golgotha, never read Shadow Point but from what I heard a good book.

So, when BL agrees with you it's a good book, and disagrees with you they've messed it up? 

"A battle-squadron comprising of the Ark Imperial, two more squadrons of Cobras and a force of troop transports and warp-towed defence monitors is already in transit to the Mather system. "

It does not mention tugs at all, merely that they're being towed, which, again doesn't make any sense as the warp drives just translate the ship out of the materium.  So how would towing it help as they would still have no geller field and no way to get ito the warp?