Eldar Domains draft rules for BFG

[Sigoroth]

Eldar Hellebore = 65 points
Eldar Aconite = 55 points

Before anyone tells me some smack about the Smotherman formula, I already know. Is a Hellebore a Nigtshade/Hemlock pair melded into a single hull? Yes. However, it is ONE hull vice two, meaning it is always torn between reloading or locking on. Besides, at 75 points a pop, NOBODY uses these things, which means they are overpriced, regardless of how powerful they are. Aconite to a lesser extent has the same problem.

Incidentally, the Hellebore and Aconite are still the #1 and #2 most expensive escorts in the game, even with the price change.

- Nate

Funny that you would expect flak over this. I've known this ships were way overpriced for a long time.

[Trasvi]

One very small thing; in the story on pg 3, the eldar calls humans "children of Earth"... in the 40k universe, that should be "children of Terra" right?

[horizon]

Aconite @ 55pts = really interesting. I loved them already.

Hellebore @ 65 = better but I would rather see them in a different role:
1 pulsar, 2batteries, 1 fighter launch bay.

Thus no torps. Fighter protection.

[Don Gusto]

Hi all! The following two items were added to the Battlefleet Gothic Repository:

1.      Eldar Domains and Refits (20101122).pdf

All I did here is correct some formatting and spelling errors, and I made a minor tweak to the wording of the Repulsor Field rules. It’s actually a major tweak in that it’s not called that anymore, but in game-rule terms the adjustment is actually very small. All I did was take two pre-existing Eldar refits and incorporate it into the Haven to replace the Repulsor Field so that it uses pre-existing mechanics instead of something completely new and totally unique to just this model. The critical chart also reflects this change.

In my opinion there is nothing wrong with having special rules for a special unit that is only used in special scenarios. The rules for the repulsion field also looked ok for me. Sort of a balancing tradeoff.

The changes are not minor tweaks but a serious upgrade. The Haven is tougher now than it was before.
Previously 3+ holofield save now back to 2+.
Previously targeted as a defence with 2 right-column shifts, now treated as an escort - Uhm ... what is its orientation? Always closing? Even that would make it effectively 3 right-column shifts as it still gets an extra shift from its holofield.

2010/10/10 looked much better to me.

Eldar Hellebore = 65 points
Eldar Aconite = 55 points

Before anyone tells me some smack about the Smotherman formula, I already know. Is a Hellebore a Nigtshade/Hemlock pair melded into a single hull? Yes. However, it is ONE hull vice two, meaning it is always torn between reloading or locking on. Besides, at 75 points a pop, NOBODY uses these things, which means they are overpriced, regardless of how powerful they are. Aconite to a lesser extent has the same problem.

Incidentally, the Hellebore and Aconite are still the #1 and #2 most expensive escorts in the game, even with the price change.

- Nate

You are going in the wrong direction.
It is not the Hellebore that is too expensive it is the Hemlock/Nightshade that are too cheap. If there is an eldar escort that is priced correctly it is the Aconite.
If you start changing the points cost of eldar escorts set the Hemlock/Nightshade at 50 points each before considering anything else.

[horizon]

Heh, as a starter the complete set of rules for Eldar should be dropped and be replaced by MMS.

[Sigoroth]

One very small thing; in the story on pg 3, the eldar calls humans "children of Earth"... in the 40k universe, that should be "children of Terra" right?

No, it's called Earth in 40k.

[flybywire-E2C]

One very small thing; in the story on pg 3, the eldar calls humans "children of Earth"... in the 40k universe, that should be "children of Terra" right?

The Imperium calls it Terra. Eldar still use the ancient name, with disdain I might add.

- Nate

[flybywire-E2C]

Hi all! The following two items were added to the Battlefleet Gothic Repository:

1.      Eldar Domains and Refits (20101122).pdf

All I did here is correct some formatting and spelling errors, and I made a minor tweak to the wording of the Repulsor Field rules. It’s actually a major tweak in that it’s not called that anymore, but in game-rule terms the adjustment is actually very small. All I did was take two pre-existing Eldar refits and incorporate it into the Haven to replace the Repulsor Field so that it uses pre-existing mechanics instead of something completely new and totally unique to just this model. The critical chart also reflects this change.

In my opinion there is nothing wrong with having special rules for a special unit that is only used in special scenarios. The rules for the repulsion field also looked ok for me. Sort of a balancing tradeoff.

The changes are not minor tweaks but a serious upgrade. The Haven is tougher now than it was before.
Previously 3+ holofield save now back to 2+.
Previously targeted as a defence with 2 right-column shifts, now treated as an escort - Uhm ... what is its orientation? Always closing? Even that would make it effectively 3 right-column shifts as it still gets an extra shift from its holofield.

2010/10/10 looked much better to me.

The Eldar by design are a fluid, nimble and highly mobile fleet. What we found out by playtesting this some more is that pinning them down to defend a static defense goes REALLY bad for these guys. Dark Eldar don't come off so badly, but the Corsair fleet (which by design would be most dependent on pirate bases) do really poorly. The long-term fix I guess would be to re-do the core Eldar rule-set or scrap the Haven entirely, but we are NOT doing the former at this time, and I would very much like to not do the latter.

As a pirate base, the Haven's greatest defense is its ability to stay hidden. To this end, it makes perfect sense that the Eldar will impart whatever technology they have at their disposal to effect this end. Even at multiple shifts, it is still shifting from a defense so at best you are shooting at this as a capital ship abeam. The Haven isn't a big model with lots of HP's. once it gets pinned, it's not going to last very long.

Eldar Hellebore = 65 points
Eldar Aconite = 55 points

Before anyone tells me some smack about the Smotherman formula, I already know. Is a Hellebore a Nigtshade/Hemlock pair melded into a single hull? Yes. However, it is ONE hull vice two, meaning it is always torn between reloading or locking on. Besides, at 75 points a pop, NOBODY uses these things, which means they are overpriced, regardless of how powerful they are. Aconite to a lesser extent has the same problem.

Incidentally, the Hellebore and Aconite are still the #1 and #2 most expensive escorts in the game, even with the price change.

- Nate

You are going in the wrong direction.
It is not the Hellebore that is too expensive it is the Hemlock/Nightshade that are too cheap. If there is an eldar escort that is priced correctly it is the Aconite.
If you start changing the points cost of eldar escorts set the Hemlock/Nightshade at 50 points each before considering anything else.

It may be priced properly by the Smotherman formula, but more comes into play than simplly using a calculator to determine point values. By our mandate, it is a LOT easier to re-price ships than it is to alter profiles. 65 points may technically be a good price for the Aconite, but considering how much the Eldar light cruisers cost, there's no point in even buying one unless the prices come down.

I don't know what kind of problems you are seeing that you believe the Nightshade and Hemlock prices need to go up, but the Corsair escorts are daggers with tissue-paper handles. Cost reflects both hitting power and survivability, and Corsair escorts against proper tactics are actually not that hard to make brace or die. At 40 points they are each the price of a Firestorm, the best escort in the Imperial fleet for the points. Their prices don't need to come down below 40, but I haven't seen very much feedback at all suggesting they need to go up either.

- Nate 

[horizon]

It may be priced properly by the Smotherman formula, but more comes into play than simplly using a calculator to determine point values. By our mandate, it is a LOT easier to re-price ships than it is to alter profiles. 65 points may technically be a good price for the Aconite, but considering how much the Eldar light cruisers cost, there's no point in even buying one unless the prices come down.

Oh my.. The Solaris is poo, Big Poo. Everyone knows that. What makes the Aconite interesting is that is the ship that brings weapon batteries into the fleet. The Aurora is Pulsar/Torps so something different.

I don't know what kind of problems you are seeing that you believe the Nightshade and Hemlock prices need to go up, but the Corsair escorts are daggers with tissue-paper handles. Cost reflects both hitting power and survivability, and Corsair escorts against proper tactics are actually not that hard to make brace or die. At 40 points they are each the price of a Firestorm, the best escort in the Imperial fleet for the points. Their prices don't need to come down below 40, but I haven't seen very much feedback at all suggesting they need to go up either.

Took drugs lately Nate?

The Firestorm is the worst IN escort. (look at the BFG discussion area).

The Nightshade IS THE BEST VESSEL IN BFG.
The Hemlock is not far behind.

Both should cost between 50-60points!!!!!!!!!!111

1 Eldar PL =  4 Eldar WB
Thus Hemlock = faster Aconite minus -1 Eldar WB (the special rule doesn't matter).

(Talking official rules in this post).

[RCgothic]

Agreement. The Firestorm is the only IN Escort up for a price adjustment in the Flawed Ships thread. We're also considering a 2nd turret for the Falchion, but it doesn't need that as much as the Firestorm needs a price break.

[Sigoroth]

I don't see the current Nightshade/Hemlock being worth 50+ pts. If there's a significant amount of terrain then yes, I can see this. Would make games against Eldar with terrain a lot tighter. Our group has traditionally used all the rules regarding scenario/battleground selection, including attack rating, so we've had a significant amount of terrain.

If however, you can shoot at them, then these ships are worth more in the region of 25-30 pts. Reports I've heard are that people often get to shoot at Eldar. I don't see it myself, so an increase to 45 pts wouldn't be out of the question, though I think 50+ goes a bit far.

The Aconite has 1 EWBe more firepower than the Nightshade and Hemlock. Even if you conclude this is worth a whole 10 pts and conclude that the Nightshade and Hemlock can come up to 45 pts then this lemon still should not cost 65 pts. Coming down to 55 pts is a reasonable compromise. There is some reason to believe this is rounding up anyway, given the speed decrease and the reduced survivability (9 Aconites at 55 pts = 11 NS/Hem at 45 pts).

[horizon]

Ever faced Volandum's all Nightshade fleet.
They should at least be 50pts.

Despite in which amount they are taken. These critters excell always.

[flybywire-E2C]

Hi everyone!!   Relevant to this thread, the Eldar Refits rules were updated. This is a FINAL product that was changed slightly to clarify how Netherfields work on the Haven. No other changes.

http://tinyurl.com/23nul8q*

- Nate

[lastspartacus]

Never will understand the concept of anything but shields on a stationary object