Tau Kor'or'vesh Commerce Protection Fleet draft rules for BFG

[flybywire-E2C]

Hi everyone!! There’s a big set of updates today!  If you want to get to it, click the link below.

http://tinyurl.com/23nul8q*

Tau Commerce Protection Fleet 2.5: Not much changed here from what has been posted for awhile except formatting and some very minor tweaks.


- Nate

[horizon]

Protectors: ok. Both are equal now.

Custodian: should be a Grand Cruiser. Tracking System upgrade = ok

Emissaries: issues remain. 1 lb =/= 3 grav missiles. Drop that variant and add 1 lb to other 2 variants.

[lastspartacus]

Grateful for the tracking system change.

I believe the Custodian needs 90cm turns.  But if not, for heavens sake, at least cruiser status.
Has a single person been against both options on this board?

Protectors:  Actually took a nerf.  Amazing.  House rules inevitable.

Pretty much agree with Horizon on the Emissary.  But I just see it as having 2 variants, the real problem is its lack of speed or shielding, one or the other.

[Vaaish]

Better, good to see the tracking system range increase.

I don't mind the custodian getting CG status but I'm opposed to 90` turns on anything that large that isn't eldar.

[horizon]

Protectors: Actually took a nerf. Amazing. House rules inevitable.

First try them out. The nerf was asked for (by me ). They are now BALANCED. I LIKE them. No change needed.
You underestimate them by a LARGE margin.

[lastspartacus]

in YOUR opinion

I understand it from the size of the vessel, but its too pricy, moreso now than ever, for the same old reasons.

[horizon]

Yeah, and from anyone else in this forum. Your supposed to be conservative as well LS
Remember that Don Gusto even found them much to cheap & overpowered.

I understand it from the size of the vessel, but its too pricy, moreso now than ever, for the same old reasons.

I'd play it at 190pts without blinking my eyes.

You underestimate: 90* and focusable firepower + ordnance support. Same old reasons.

Draft Protector with 45cm IC compared to FW Protector:
-1 missile, -1 launch bay
+  2 RG (better arcs), +Turn Rate
For 5pts less. (FW = 190)

The FW Protector was good for its points (lots of experience from players around the world and personal use).

I totally agree with the changes made.

[lastspartacus]

Oh come on, I can't remember anyone besides me and you discussing points costs, but maybe thats the codeine talking.

Id love to test it out, but until someone helps me out on here I'll have to wait till my fleet arrives in full.
(Shipping takes FOREVER, but due to a deformity in my first Custodian, I'm getting a second one shipped free )

I'm not underestimating the focused fire, I do realize it is an advantage.  I also realize its all the ship has, and theres advantages to duplicate broadsides.  Also, I think its been stated and proven enough that 90* and forward guns actually give you less fire options than 45* broadside ships, though being able to shift direction in general certainly is an advantage.

So what that leaves us with is a ship that has the total firepower of a focused chaos cruiser broadside, with the added benefit of throwing in a torp salvo in the same arc and a squadron for ordnance protection.
The negatives being the above-mentioned and -2 HP, which is a big deal.

Positives, negatives, like any ship.  I just don't see what puts it past 175 points, with the negatives weighing it down.

[lastspartacus]

Oh, forgot another thing nobody seemed to disagree with.

Ok Nate, 2 things generally the community as a whole was fine with, that weren't addressed one way or the other:

Greater mobility for Custodian.

Greater defense on Custodian.

You've got options.  Cruiser status or 90* turns.  4th shield or prow deflectors.  Get to the coin flipping, or however yall decide over there

[horizon]

Oh come on, I can't remember anyone besides me and you discussing points costs, but maybe thats the codeine talking.

Codeine. Others gave up on easing your mind.

I'm not underestimating the focused fire, I do realize it is an advantage.  I also realize its all the ship has, and theres advantages to duplicate broadsides.  Also, I think its been stated and proven enough that 90* and forward guns actually give you less fire options than 45* broadside ships, though being able to shift direction in general certainly is an advantage.

If you really think that 45* broadside gives more options....

So what that leaves us with is a ship that has the total firepower of a focused chaos cruiser broadside, with the added benefit of throwing in a torp salvo in the same arc and a squadron for ordnance protection.

That is massive (5 missiles)

The negatives being the above-mentioned and -2 HP, which is a big deal.

-2 hits is the only negative.


Custodian: prow deflector, ok. Grand Cruiser should be.

Positives, negatives, like any ship.  I just don't see what puts it past 175 points, with the negatives weighing it down.





[/quote]

[lastspartacus]

Ya, as much as I'd like a universally more useful 3rd shield, I think prow deflector more and more is the fluffy option.
As the ethereal surveyed the cavernous bays of the prototype Custodian, he motioned to the commander beside him, pointing towards the vast expanse of space that opened in front of him.  'Commander, you will need something to cover that..."

Yes, the Protector can manouver where it needs to go faster, but -2hp isnt the only disadvantage of the class, though that alone should cause a nice points break.

90 degree and front fire means greater blind spots than a 45 and broadside ship.
-2 hit points.
Mixed ordnance/gunnery stats mean theres less solid advantage to LO/RO.
Third of firepower negated by a fighter marker.
Advantage in focused firepower but less overall firepower than a Lunar.
AC slot that while handy, bumps the price up without doing much by itself.
(Can you squadron markers from squadroned ships if in btb like torps?  Maybe that would be a nice suggestion for the next FAQ if not.)

And thats everything I can think of as a reason why they Protector shouldnt be 185.  And I like the ship, I really do.
Its mainly a 'I could fit another Castellan in this list if those damn Protectors didnt have such a strangely high opinion of themself' kind of thing

[tinfish]

Protector should be fine. When I playtested an earlier version (more wb's 45 turns) they did a lot of damage on the way in, but were generally crippled before they could make another pass. More maneuverability is always good (still like them to be faster though).

I don't think there is any point in keeping arguing for 90 turns for the Custodian, if the HA were going to do it they would have by now.

[lastspartacus]

Nor have they given it cruiser status or more protection.

More manouverability and better protection, in general, are 2 things that many people want and no one has objected against. 

[Vaaish]

It shouldn't get both. If it gets anything it should be CG status which only allows it to use the CTNH order.

[Don Gusto]

Well I guess I'm done with this draft. The Tau ships keep getting worse with every revision.

So far the Custodian was the only capital ship that looked like a balanced design. But just barely with the tracking system included.
Imho the Custodian is the wrong ship for a tracking system. Ironically the numerous complaints here just prove this to be true.

But instead of correcting your mistake, you force it to work by doubling its range.
20cm - HOLY SHIT! - that's a 40cm diameter. 40cm of Tau uberness and not one additional point to pay for it. Forgeworld will just love this list.

Fluff- and gameplay-wise the tracking system was already pushing the limits. This is bad.