Tau Kor'or'vesh Commerce Protection Fleet draft rules for BFG

[Caine-HoA]

@Emissarry

Yes they have a lot of weapons but still only 4HP. I often said give them the 2nd shield and 25cm and not that much firepower (fits better fluffwise as well). Who transports a diplomat with a ship that cant take even one shot from a cruiser and at the same time cant outrun the cruiser.

[Sigoroth]

Heh, just figured out that I could make an exactly 3000 point Tau fleet using only FW models.

Kor'O + Aun'O - 155
2 x Custodian + 6 Wardens - 840
4 x Protector - 740
2 x Emissary w/ deflector + 4 Wardens - 360
6 x Castellan - 300
Stronghold - 350
Bastion - 255

Total = 3000   

Not that I would mind you. Bastion is over costed and I wouldn't take the Castellans either, and not anywhere near so many Wardens. I'd just throw in six Heros instead. 

[Sigoroth]

Don't know, but still bothering me is that there is so much crammed in on those platforms. Almost every cruiser has 5 weapon hardpoints. How many are there on the Tau cruisers? A lot more. Same point cost as the Tyrant. Way more manoeuvrable. And that race is still a little behind the IN?
It doesn't 'feel' right. And I am repeating myself  
I know it's not going to change but keep it in mind?

Well, each of these Tau hardpoints is actually very small. The IN hardpoints are worth between 1 to 2 times the value of the Tau hardpoints. Not to mention that IN ships can use a 6th hardpoint (dorsal), they just don't usually. Also, the Tyrant, which is a rubbish ship, has 20 WBs and 6 torps. The Dominator, Lunar and Gothic have more firepower. We're talking 14 WBe + torps/AC here. As for being more manoeuvrable, well, they're lighter. If there was a 6 hit Lunar I'd hear a case for making them 90° too.

[horizon]

Hi Commander,

Don't know, but still bothering me is that there is so much crammed in on those platforms. Almost every cruiser has 5 weapon hardpoints. How many are there on the Tau cruisers? A lot more. Same point cost as the Tyrant. Way more manoeuvrable. And that race is still a little behind the IN? It doesn't 'feel' right. And I am repeating myself  I know it's not going to change but keep it in mind?

You cannot compare an Imperial ship to a FW Tau vessel regarding hardpoints, though a Lunar has 5 and an IN battlecruiser 6

The race is not behind the IN. Doh. This fleet feels really as it should.

Lunar vs Protector
180 vs 185
8 hits vs 6 hits
Same armour but Tau prow armour to be taken offline in case of critical
2 turrets vs 3 turrets
20cm vs 20cm
45* vs 90*
2 shields vs 2 shields.

So in the basic we trade off resilience vs manoeuvrability.

When comparing tactics one has to keep in mind fleet tactics. 1 launch bay won't overwhelm the Lunar. 5 missiles won't break it. Neither would 6 torpedoes break the Protector.
8 batteries plus 2 lances @ 30cm from the Protector does out-edge the 6 batteries plus 2 lances @30cm from the Lunar. The Protector also has extended range.

Once the Lunar makes it past the prow, even 90* won't help the Protector to keep it up.

8 vs 6 hits is a big deal.

In essence both ships have simple doctrines.

I see balance, especially as the Protector is more expensive.

[Vaaish]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure he meant the range aspect of that. So Custodians can have multi-arc 45cm range ICs, but Protectors can only have locked forward 45cm ICs. Nothing below a Protector can have 45cm ICs. Everything else is limited to 30cm range for their ICs.

Quite possible he did mean that, but what of 45cm Ion Cannons being extremely rare? With the fleet list as it is I can bring a custodian and 5 protectors which gives me 45cm ion cannons on every capital ship. Granted it might not be the most efficient, but if we are following what Nate said, shouldn't there be a limit on how many 45cm ion equipped protectors one can take?

[horizon]

True,
therefor I would go by 45cm Custodian only, all Protectors 30cm.

[lastspartacus]

As its supposed to be different from the orca, and its 5 points more expensive, I would up the warden's wb str by 1.
It is a 'warden' afterall, it feels more like a overpriced orca, as is.  In the Armada fleet, I feel joy at taking hook options over lance slots, but this is a much tougher pill to swallow.

[Sigoroth]

Quite possible he did mean that, but what of 45cm Ion Cannons being extremely rare? With the fleet list as it is I can bring a custodian and 5 protectors which gives me 45cm ion cannons on every capital ship. Granted it might not be the most efficient, but if we are following what Nate said, shouldn't there be a limit on how many 45cm ion equipped protectors one can take?

Yeah, I see what you mean. So one variant with 4/2/2 railguns at 45cm + 2 ion cannon at 30cm and the other with 4/4/4 railguns at 45cm and no ion cannons? This would be very very similar to the firepower of the Hero. One variant would have identical direct fire and the other one would be half way between the two Hero versions. The Protector would trade hits for manoeuvrability. The Protector would lose 1 AC and 1 torp (assuming 1 AC 5 torps is accepted) but gain ease of access and better boarding value. Given all this I'd say these profiles are fine at 180 pts

As its supposed to be different from the orca, and its 5 points more expensive, I would up the warden's wb str by 1.
It is a 'warden' afterall, it feels more like a overpriced orca, as is.  In the Armada fleet, I feel joy at taking hook options over lance slots, but this is a much tougher pill to swallow.

This was my solution also, given that there's opposition to the 2IC Warden on the basis of the effectiveness, or lack thereof, of all lances against certain fleets (SM/Necron & Eldar). However, there's also a balance issue that this ship would be more powerful and faster than the Orca for 5 pts. The model itself is tiny. So I'm not against 4+ armour for it as a balancing factor.

However, given its small size I actually like Horizons 4 RG version. And at 4+ armour we could actually pull the cost down to 5 pts less than the Orca. I'd accept either version.

[lastspartacus]

Ya, just...Something.

[Vaaish]

Yeah, I see what you mean. So one variant with 4/2/2 railguns at 45cm + 2 ion cannon at 30cm and the other with 4/4/4 railguns at 45cm and no ion cannons? This would be very very similar to the firepower of the Hero. One variant would have identical direct fire and the other one would be half way between the two Hero versions. The Protector would trade hits for manoeuvrability. The Protector would lose 1 AC and 1 torp (assuming 1 AC 5 torps is accepted) but gain ease of access and better boarding value. Given all this I'd say these profiles are fine at 180 pts

If I'm following you right, I think that would work. Do you think that +4 batteries would be enough to make the no ion cannon version worth taking? It's not much of a trade for a little more firepower at range.

[horizon]

2 ic @ 30 vs 4rg @ 45.

Isn't that the Hero trade-off as well?

[lastspartacus]

2 ic @ 30 vs 4rg @ 45.

Isn't that the Hero trade-off as well?

I'd prefer the 2 ic.  gravhook escorts need to good enough for your opponent to look twice at the points.

Honestly though str3 batt and an IC at 30 would be perfect for it, imo.

[Sigoroth]

If I'm following you right, I think that would work. Do you think that +4 batteries would be enough to make the no ion cannon version worth taking? It's not much of a trade for a little more firepower at range.

As Horizon mentions, this is the same value trade-off the original Hero variants have. You could nestle up next to a Custodian to give those 4 batteries no column shift for long range, making it a better swap. Of course, if you're going to run a mixed fleet you could do this with the variant Hero instead, since they have the same speed/turn rate as the Custodian and would also have 12RG.

Well, maybe this variant isn't so great. How about a 6IC@30cmF variant?  Well, the SG formula trade off is 2IC@30cm for 4RG@45cm after all ...

[horizon]

I am just gonne say no.... 6 lances.... really Sig. That ship requires less tactics then a ...something.

On variants:
Heck, how do I model this anyway?

[Sigoroth]

I am just gonne say no.... 6 lances.... really Sig. That ship requires less tactics then a ...something.

Heh, what's wrong with 6 lances? 

On variants:
Heck, how do I model this anyway?

Yeah I know. I think that it's pretty easy to just stick some cannon in the round spots on the underside of the Emissary to represent lances, leave as is to represent hooks. Or you could have the wing tip cannon represent lances and just clip them off for a hook version. With the Protector however I think maybe we're just adding a variant for the sake of it. Just about any major weaponry refit is going to be hard to actually model.