Tau Kor'or'vesh Commerce Protection Fleet draft rules for BFG

[Zelnik]

Nix the whole Citidel crap, and keep the bastion rules and you should be OK.

What part of "you don't have the authority to make new ships in an official document" don't you people understand?

[Caine-HoA]

@Zelnik
Who else but the official holders of the rules for a game should have the authority in your opinion?

[horizon]

Zelnik, please understand the HA makes and made all rules!

[flybywire-E2C]

The Tau Commerce Protection Fleet had some misspellings and other minor errors corrected concerning the Emissary and the Demiurg cutting beam. The files are updated and stored in the same place here:

https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0Bw_dULEfC3rbYzUyNjQzZTAtMDZiMS00ZjRlLWJjNzMtYTE5YmNjZjdjODQ1&hl=en

By the way, just in case there's some confusion, the Citadel doesn't replace the Bastion, it is a new addition. The purpose was to create a cheap Demiurg cruiser that can be used in scenarios with cruiser point restrictions, a necessity when creating a "pure" fleet list. Game on, have fun and enjoy!

Nate

[Zelnik]

yeah yeah i conceded the point

However there is NO reason to add the citidel, the bastion is already in the game, and fulfills the same role.  I am not sure the change to the cutting beam is necessary either. Yes it is absurdly short range, yes it is only useful in specific situations, but it's still a potent weapon when used properly.

[Caine-HoA]

Can you please clarify the functionality of a Nicassar Caravan?
"A Nicassar Caravan in motion has its Rig and Dhows as a single entity that does not separate during the course of a battle"
So would i play the 5cm moving thing with the addition of 4 Dhow`s Weapon? Or how is that meant?

[Don Gusto]

I think the 'Nicassar Caravan' for 220 points represents a rig with four docked dhows. The weapon batteries are from the dhows as the rig doesn't have any. It's Rig+4dhows in one compact package.
Maybe the 'Gravitic Hook' entry is misleading here and should be removed.

[Caine-HoA]

So 8 WB for 220 points that hardly cant get anywhere on the battlefield?

[horizon]

Something has to compensate for the overpowered Protector & Custodian.  


I am a bit worried by the lack of replies in this thread by Nate and/or perhaps Ray.  Or am I just to impatient?

[Caine-HoA]

I dont think that the Custodian is too overpowered, it is good yes but first af all in most games you can only have one and second it still has 3shields and 10hits and is a jack of all trades, what has his advantages but in some cases lacks raw firepower (e.g. to the broadsides or when failing the reload, compared with other BBs). So i think the Custodian is ok.

BTW the Protector still has the same problem, if it failes reload or uses lock on (not beeing able to reload) it lacks half of its firepower. As you only have such ships in a Tau fleet some of them will fail their reloads...

[horizon]

I dont think that the Custodian is too overpowered, it is good yes but first af all in most games you can only have one and second it still has 3shields and 10hits and is a jack of all trades, what has his advantages but in some cases lacks raw firepower (e.g. to the broadsides or when failing the reload, compared with other BBs). So i think the Custodian is ok.

As said I tested the Forgeworld fleet a lot and it is balanced.

This new Custodian is +20pts for (values roughly on smotherman as a basic:
Drops Prow Deflector (-15pts)
+1 shield (+10pts)
+ 15cm on Ion cannons (+15pts)
+ 2 missiles (+10pts)
Tracking Systems is turret re-roll, say 1-2 extra (+5pts)
Tracking Systems is no right shift above 30cm = +4 batteries above 30 (+10pts)
-15 + 10 + 15 + 10 + 5 + 10 = + 30 pts.
310 + 30 = 345.

Personally I think the prow deflector is weaker then an extra shield. An extra shield is a huge improvement. Much less need to brace vs fleets with lances.
6 missiles + 8 bays is much better synergy then 4 missiles and 8 bays.
45cm Ion cannons to assist tracked batteries is excellent.
At 45cm the ship now has an equivalent of 12 wb => 16 wb + 6 (2x3ic) = 22 batteries.

365 Emperor = 16wb broadside + 8 bays
345 Retribution = 21 wb broadside + 9 torps
300 Desolator = 18 wb broadside + 9 torps
330 New Draft Custodian = 22 wb broadside + 6 missiles + 8 bays
310 FW Custodian = 18 wb broadside + 4 missiles + 8 bays (shorter ranged ions)
335 Oberon = 22 wb broadside + 4 bays
etc

See?

Also, most players use 1 Custodian in 1500pts, not 2 so to them not being able to take 2 isn't a problem. Though getting exact 1500 pts is possible.

BTW the Protector still has the same problem, if it failes reload or uses lock on (not beeing able to reload) it lacks half of its firepower. As you only have such ships in a Tau fleet some of them will fail their reloads...

Compared to the balanced FW Protector the new one = -5pts for:
Left/Right arcs added to 45cm Ion Cannon
Tracking Systems (extra turret)
Tracking System + 2 wb above 30cm

If you now tell me that a kor'o and aun and point restriction is needed for a Protector to balance the ship I will eat this thread . A ship needs to be balanced, not afterwards in the fleet list (aka the Hero mistake).

You must not compare to other fleets, you must compare to the FW fleet.

This new Tau fleet excells at gunnery & ordnance. Previously is was average at gunnery and excells at ordnance.

[Caine-HoA]

I just wanted to keep in mind that those tau ships have their disadvatages as well.

- The custodian with the added shield can still take a lot less dmg than a BB with 12hits and shields. The tracking systems for the turrets wont do a lot as it is simply stupid (in most cases) to attack battleships with 4or5 turrets with ordnance.
- The weapons ARE strong but only to the front, most times battleships arent agile enough to chose their positioning.


Dont get me wrong, i dont say it is weak, but it is only one ship (most of the time) and has its weaknesses in comparison to other battleships as well.

I completely agree that a ship has to be balanced not only the fleet list correcting the ships. But after all the complete array of ships and style of playing decides how strong a fleet is. I just wanted to remind that tau still only have standart leaderships but almost every single ship needs to reload ordnance to have his full potential.

And overall i already said several times that from the FW list perspective the small ships (most of all the emissary) shouldve been reviewed not the custodian (though i like that the battleship got at least a 3rd shield) and protector they were ok.

And i too have the fear of beeing overheared here in some aspects. To say something positive in that direction, i really like the castellan and that all of these updates are even happening ;-) Now lets make them good.

[horizon]

Agreed on the last remark

To stir a little I posted a link to these threads at the Yahoo group.

[Vaaish]

The custodian with the added shield can still take a lot less dmg than a BB with 12hits and shields. The tracking systems for the turrets wont do a lot as it is simply stupid (in most cases) to attack battleships with 4or5 turrets with ordnance.
- The weapons ARE strong but only to the front, most times battleships arent agile enough to chose their positioning.

For all intents and purposes the custodian is a grand cruiser that can't CTNH and way more turrets and weapons. Having fairly extensive experience with the Vengeance class, I can say that the statline is still fairly difficult to take down. I disagree with the tracking system. While it might stupid to attack battleships with bombers given their high turrets, it's still worthwhile to use torpedoes and this greatly increases the tau capabilities against even regular sized cruiser salvos. Beyond that, there is absolutely no trade off for using the tracking system. If you are insistent on them having it on all capital ships for whatever reason, at least make the column shift only happen for ships locked on and the turret rerolls only for ships that are braced. That at least forces some tougher decisions about what to do rather than the current shoot the crap out of them and then bomb the target into submission.

Also, for all intents and purposes the agility of BB is irrelevant. I can count on my hands the number of times CTNH has been needed and good positioning at the start of the game lets them keep a fairly large swath of the table in the forward arc as they move. 

[Caine-HoA]

Making the tracking systems different advantages only active when having special orders would be even more special rules.

Imagine mixing it with a Messenger Escort... enemies of the tau fleet who dont know them that well will be completely lost when they can use their tracking systems and what part of the tracking system is active at a certain time...

I cant remember what ur favorite fleet was at the moment but i guess it has some advatages of its own who arent only ative at special orders. (btw im not a tau fanboy, i play tau, eldar, imp, admech, sm and soon tyranids as well so i really like to have balanced fleets) How often in a fleet engagement can you shoot exactly at the range of 30-45cm? Of corse tracking systems are usefull but other fleets have even longer ranges or other boni.



Your last point with the agility has its disadvanteges as well. Yes you can try to position your battleship to only move slowly and keep closing in but first of all that keeps your toughest ship out of the battle and second this taktic is far easier to use with a ship that has a strong braodside (as u simply move sidewards instead of closing at least 7,5-10cm each round). With "only" 45 cm range how often can u move slowly towards the enemy until you come into their range? (maybe two or maximum 3 turns, so how could you keep them in your front arc for a long time?)