BFG 2010 FAQ WIP pdf file

[Zelnik]

Admiral, no offense, but that was really out of line.  I want to maintain the status quo because it's how the game was made.  I started with Tau, and didn't start eldar until I had four other fleets.. I barely play them over my chaos or imperial navy.

Why do i want them to stay the same? because they were balanced that way. I honestly believe that most of the people who try and change their rules are doing so because they can't change their tactics to compensate!

Why the heck are you giving the overlord and Armageddon nova cannon upgrades?! are you MAD? Nova cannons are NOT meant to go on every imperial navy ship! if you do that, you take away one of the special rules that the Adeptus Mechanus have unique to them!
Why don't they have them? because fleets with 5 nova cannons ruin the game.  Why doesn't the Armageddon get a nova cannon? because if it shouldn't! the nova cannon is a standard 20 point upgrade across the fleet, even in the admech.  Also, why take the Mars, when you can take the cheaper Dictator now? Why not give IT a nova cannon too?

Why am I so against you screwing with the game? because everything that comes out of your writing will probably ruin it! What makes this game great is that there are NO major changes over time, unlike the disaster which is 40k.  It's one thing to give a Repulsive a third shield, but giving the IN access to even MORE nova cannons, or accusing "eldar sympathizers" of resisting the change.. How in the world did you become a member of the HA??

[horizon]

lol @ zelnik.

HA =
flybywire = Nate Montes (z?)
Raysokuk = Ray Bell
Patriarch = Bob Henderson

Admiral d'artagnas has the same veteran status like you and me.

Why do i want them to stay the same? because they were balanced that way. I honestly believe that most of the people who try and change their rules are doing so because they can't change their tactics to compensate!

That is a 50/50 statement. Some people are indeed tactical nitwits and ask for changes but people like Sigoroth, Vaaish, Admiral D'Artagnan, Russc, you and me etc are tactical enough to make that difference.

Eldar official rules are just plain wrong. Space Marines are now getting a needed update. Rogue Traders finally fleshed out. Funky rules for the Eldar Haven. And since FW removed the pdf for the Tau fleet it was given to make a new Tau pdf upon the FW models. Mind you, the FW fleet was not unbalanced but it was bland and not innovative. The new rules are for unique, cool within a balanced enviroment.

The FAQ 2010, you know, it is impossible to please everyone. That just is fact. Every player has his vision. Sometimes the same, sometimes different. You need to go to a middle point. I think the HA did a pretty good job with this FAQ2010.

The Nova Cannon upgrade was a 'surprise' but I don't see Nova Cannon spam as 'wrong' within the current rules. I don't mind the option, I don't mind a removal so to say.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Admiral, no offense, but that was really out of line.  I want to maintain the status quo because it's how the game was made.  I started with Tau, and didn't start eldar until I had four other fleets.. I barely play them over my chaos or imperial navy.

What status quo? Oh the one where IN have almost 0% chance of ever winning against Eldar? That status quo? Sorry but in the interest of BALANCE, that should be changed.

Why do i want them to stay the same? because they were balanced that way. I honestly believe that most of the people who try and change their rules are doing so because they can't change their tactics to compensate!

Really? Have you EVER tried playing IN vs Eldar?

Why the heck are you giving the overlord and Armageddon nova cannon upgrades?! are you MAD? Nova cannons are NOT meant to go on every imperial navy ship! if you do that, you take away one of the special rules that the Adeptus Mechanus have unique to them!
Why don't they have them? because fleets with 5 nova cannons ruin the game.  Why doesn't the Armageddon get a nova cannon? because if it shouldn't! the nova cannon is a standard 20 point upgrade across the fleet, even in the admech.  Also, why take the Mars, when you can take the cheaper Dictator now? Why not give IT a nova cannon too?

I'm not the one giving them the NC. The HA are the ones giving it to the Armageddon and Armageddon ONLY. Please read the new draft. I'm on the fence actually. I think it's a waste personally since the 45 cm broadside lances would be wasted. I only suggested the Overlord because, let's face it, that ship needs all the help it can get.

As for the NC, Eldar should not really be getting any save when the outer template hits them anyway. It's in effect, an area effect explosion. How the Eldar can save it with their holofields is very much questionable indeed. I can understand saving against the center hole, but not the outer template.

Why am I so against you screwing with the game? because everything that comes out of your writing will probably ruin it! What makes this game great is that there are NO major changes over time, unlike the disaster which is 40k.  It's one thing to give a Repulsive a third shield, but giving the IN access to even MORE nova cannons, or accusing "eldar sympathizers" of resisting the change.. How in the world did you become a member of the HA??

Screwing with the game? Really? Problems have already been identified and needs changing. And yes, most of those who are Eldar sympathizers are the ones resisting the change. When a race virtually can't win against another faction, it means there is a problem. IN do not have any weapons on their basic cruisers and escorts which can reach the Eldar with their present rules. One needs to invest in BCs and battleships which really, Eldar can just play the movement game against. Why do you think MMS was proposed as unofficial rules? Because MSM IS broken (move, shoot and hide behind terrain). Eldar weaponry IS broken (re-rolling torps, str 1 lance which can hit up to 3x). Eldar Defenses are obscenely broken (weakness only vs WB, superb against everything else). And if you can't see that then you need to play IN vs Eldar some more, maybe even Orks vs Eldar.

And who said I was a member of the HA? The things I propose are from a player's point of view. I try to bring as balanced a change as I possibly can (1TH instead of 2 TH for SC in exchange for another shield, Eldar holofields which still get 1 right column shift vs WBs but lances change to hit on a 5+ with re-roll or straight 6+ with no re-roll as examples) When I propose a change in something, I try to balance addition with subtraction unless the subject in question is utterly rubbish that it needs all the help it can get (like NC on Overlord for +20, +20!!!) or the subject is so strong that it needs to be toned down, a subject like, oh... ELDAR!

If Eldar played more like Dark Eldar, you won't hear much complaints from me.

[Sigoroth]

4.) In regard to point 2, in my opinion it's best to create clarifications that enhance the game by making rule scenarios simpler to understand and minimize the edge cases that cause confusion, disputes, or vagary.  Any rule that creates the need for more rules to justify or clarify is a classic indicator that something is mechanically wrong.  A good example of a simplified rule in action is the choice for blast markers affecting all around a base.  Sure it makes some tactical decisions moot, but it does a grand job of simplifying situations, avoiding vagary, and thus keeping the game moving while retaining the essence of the original rules.  The shortest path to achieving the same results with overlapping bases is of course to not allow any overlapping at all, but this might provide to much compromise to the essence of the game. Instead I offer a shorter path to simplicity at less of a sacrifice: allow non-friendly overlapping.

While I completely agree that overlapping bases should be avoided at all costs (even enemy bases), your example of a "simplified rule in action" is bad. The all-round BM rule is a complication, not a simplification. The gunnery rules state that if your line of fire from the firing ship to the target passes through a BM then you get a right shift. Clean, simple, elegant. The all-round BM rule is counter-intuitive since you could have a clear line but still count as firing through BMs. It complicates the rules, reduces the tactical depth of the game and, more than that, was completely unnecessary.

[Vaaish]

I agree, you know.

I know, but I wanted to raise the point again over here.

Why the heck are you giving the overlord and Armageddon nova cannon upgrades?! are you MAD? Nova cannons are NOT meant to go on every imperial navy ship! if you do that, you take away one of the special rules that the Adeptus Mechanus have unique to them!

This is what I would like to know. It just showed up in the latest draft along with some other odd little changes that don't seem necessary.

[Zelnik]

The eldar players are not responsible for your lack of tactics, admiral.

One of my first fights with my imperial navy, WAS eldar.. they even had the super-scary void stalker.

I mopped the floor with him, AND trashed the void stalker before it had a chance to make a shot. I even used the 'horrible' and 'terrible' endeavor light cruiser to do it.



And when it comes to the overlord, Again, if you can't figure out how to use it, that's not reason to change it.
I have a 1500 point fleet where i use two squadroned overlords as the primary 'hammer' of the fleet, and it does a number on just about every fleet i have played it against.

And if you were wondering... Just like how the space marines are not meant to win every game, the eldar are meant to win a LOT... why? because they have a hell of a lot more experience at space combat then almost any other faction.  If you want to win against Eldar, bring tyrants or overlords, or change your tactics.

There are a LOT of similar complaints about the dwarves in blood bowl, but they have not changed because they are supposed to be a challenge to play against.  Just like the eldar and necrons in BFG.

Perhaps you should start a thread on "how to beat eldar with IN" instead of trying to change the whole game, and insulting some of the players at the same time.

[horizon]

Aha! Don't tailor. Thus do not take Overlords or Tyrants just because you fight Eldar. You use them because they are your core 1500pts choices.

A Void Stalker that made no shot... I love to read that battle report. Was it an experienced Eldar player? If so he deserves a beating from Asuryan himself

The Overlord is dropped by the largest margin of players, not only the Admiral D'Artagnan. Maybe not because it is bad ship but because there are much better ships to pick.

/sidenote here
Zelnik does have a fair bit of completely different vision on tactics - ship choices within BFG. (The grog-o-matics). I am not saying it is worse or better, just that is should be noted. With different I mean different from what the common choices are. Also from a powergamers view.

But I'd call it game. Open a thread on how the Imperial Navy should beat a Corsair Eldar fleet.
And with Corsair Eldar I mean: no Hellebores for sure.

[Zelnik]

Thanks Horizon.

And to answer your question.. It involved three endeavors, all ahead full, and a small planet.

[horizon]

AAF? 4d6, max = 24cm plus 20cm base = 44cm. small planet, gravity well ~5-10cm.  But as said that was max move.

Nice AAF for sure and totally bad foresight from the Eldar player if he tried to hide the VS behind a planet.

On: Endeavour batteries: 8 at 30cm. On AAF halved. so total you had 3x4 = 12 batteries.

12 batteries at 4+ armour (unkown positioning). But, jeez, give it max, closing capital within 15cm = 8 dice (holo shift).

Thus 8 dice at 4+ armour. Per average that would be 4 hits.

So that means you got some great lucky and good dice along the way to kill the Void Stalker in one strike.
!

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

The eldar players are not responsible for your lack of tactics, admiral.

Again you are assuming I lack tactics. That's the second time you have accused me of that. Why not I just assume your playing group is the one that lacks tactics for not using Eldar effectively because you can beat them with your IN consistently? The fact is there are almost no tactics which can be viable against Eldar with IN unless one does decide to tailor and even then the tailored ships are still  in trouble because Eldar will be taking multiple squadrons of Hemlocks and Nightshades. Hemlocks, assuming 3 per squadron will fire anywhere bet 3 to 9 lance shots then zip away while Nightshades will be firing 6 re-rollable torps each squad of 3 and then zip away AND hide behind TERRAIN which every Eldar player will make sure to be on the table.  

One of my first fights with my imperial navy, WAS eldar.. they even had the super-scary void stalker.

News Flash: The VS isn't the scary one.

I mopped the floor with him, AND trashed the void stalker before it had a chance to make a shot. I even used the 'horrible' and 'terrible' endeavor light cruiser to do it.

Haha well, fine, you had one good game. And how long has this Eldar player been playing? How many games has he had under his belt? How many times have you gamed? What did he bring against your IN and what was your IN's composition? Hint: if he was not bringing the Nightshades or the Hemlocks enmasse, he's not a true Eldar player.

Again, one good game does not break the facts, especially if you're tailoring by bringing 45 cm to 60 cm ships like the Overlord and Tyrant. Try using that same list against Chaos or other races and see your list burn.

And when it comes to the overlord, Again, if you can't figure out how to use it, that's not reason to change it.
I have a 1500 point fleet where i use two squadroned overlords as the primary 'hammer' of the fleet, and it does a number on just about every fleet i have played it against.

So what are you afraid of if the Overlord gets an NC? It still bumps up the cost to 250. It's not like it comes for free. It's not a question of I can't figure out how to use it effectively. It's an issue of there are other better ships which can take its place. Vengeance, Exorcists, Armageddon. That's the problem with the Overlord. Sure you can bring two. I can also being 2 Armageddons, 2 Vengeances or 2 Exorcists and I'd have more firepower to bear.

Hammer? Funny. Hammer with what? Your FP16 WBs with right column shifts for ranges above 30 cm? I'm so scared.

And if you were wondering... Just like how the space marines are not meant to win every game, the eldar are meant to win a LOT... why? because they have a hell of a lot more experience at space combat then almost any other faction.  If you want to win against Eldar, bring tyrants or overlords, or change your tactics.

I don't mind Eldar winning a lot. I mind when there is virtually no chance of IN winning unless it tailors.

There are a LOT of similar complaints about the dwarves in blood bowl, but they have not changed because they are supposed to be a challenge to play against.  Just like the eldar and necrons in BFG.

Perhaps you should start a thread on "how to beat eldar with IN" instead of trying to change the whole game, and insulting some of the players at the same time.

Again, challenge is meaningless if your fleet cannot win unless one has to tailor.

Insult? I haven't insulted you or anyone. In fact it's you who has been going out of the way insinuating people are dumb because they lack tactics. All I have said are it's the ones who are biased towards Eldar who would like to maintain the status quo. What's insulting or out of line about that? Is it false?

FYI, I'm not even one who proposed MMS. It was another Eldar player who decided that MMS was broken and wanted to institute another change to give the other players like IN (and Orks) a chance to win. Don't go harping at me.

And tell me, what's so bad about the NC's outer template doing 1 hit? Maybe finally Eldar will be forced to use that Special Order, BFI, which other races use consistently while Eldar do nothing but rely on their superb holofields.

[fracas]

why not NC on Armageddons and Overlord

imo make more sense there than on lunars, tyrants, or dominators

[horizon]

Ahem, Dominators are build around it so from that viewpoint...

And I am half responsible for seeing MMS online in the first place. Pestering that certain member made him post it. History shows what happened. <grin>

[lastspartacus]

As far as novas go, the fewer the better.  Simply because it makes the much more specialized admech worth it to collect a unique fleet, which a friend of mine is currently doing.

And for what its worth, MMS Eldar are now, to me, the only official Eldar

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Yup. I'm actually fine with only the Lunar and Tyrant getting the NC. Personally, I would prefer the NC get a boost but then get limited in access. Aligns it with the fluff.

As it is, I'm on the fence with the Armageddon getting it. 265 points isn't cheap so I'd still stick to the Dominators and Lunars for the non-Gothic lists.

[Sigoroth]

Eldar vs NC:

Well, the NC is a directed weapon. So holofields should have some effect. The blast, however, is AoE. I myself would allow Eldar targets to move the template by up to 1cm after the scatter, to represent the holofields throwing off the aim (or rather, the ships not being where they appear relative to the blast). Otherwise no save. Of course, this is presupposing the original Eldar rules. But they're so broken as to be laughable, so it doesn't really matter anyway.

@Zelnik
From the years I've been on BFG forums and to what extent that allows someone to get to know someone I doubt that you'll find too much fault in Admiral d'Artagnan's tactics. I myself have lost once with Eldar. It was against IN, but there were quite a few extenuating circumstances and it was a slim loss. My gaming group have long since given up trying to fight Eldar.

Mind you, we followed the battlezone selection rules using strategy ratings as shown in the rulebook. This meant that in the vast majority of scenarios battles took place in the Outer Reaches. I always had sufficient terrain in which to manoeuvre. If, for whatever reason, Eldar ever find themselves without terrain then they're royally boned. I can only presume that in your victory against Eldar they had no terrain.

As for the Overlord, it's a hunk of junk. As are Tyrants for that matter. Out of my some 30 odd IN cruisers I posses no Overlords. I have 8 Armageddon and 4 Mars, no Overlords. Plenty of Dominators, Dictators, Gothics and even some Lunars. I don't have Tyrants, but could easily make them I suppose.

Anyway, the NC was supposed to be rare and so the Dom and Mars are the only ships to come with them standard. The Tyrant and Lunar have the option to be refit with them. This isn't all that unreasonable, since "rare" could mean "not fleet-wide" or "non-standard", etc. Presumably as time goes on more and more ships would be refit with NCs. So, since the Armageddon is an upgraded Lunar it stands to reason that some of the Lunars that got the refit to become Armageddons might have had the NC. Of course, this is a percentage of a percentage, so the rule didn't need to be added.