Craftworld Eldar and why you hate me

[Kraken]

Huh, there is no such thing as an official Imperial Battleship with two sets of six launch bays.

Nemesis class fleet carrier , was in planet killer issue 1 ?

To add: 4 Eldar launch bays are as good as 6-8 normal bays. With the fact that both Wraithships & Dragonships have ordnance an opponent will see himself many times on the defensive and can not spend a lot of time hunting Eldar with bombers.

No they are nearer six in terms of statistics. 4+ to stay on = 50%  the bombers probably work out as 50% more effective in terms of damage due to them survivng turret fire better but their max damage is the same (6) they are reliable tho.

They do not have less weaponry. 8 Eldar batteries (always count as closing) equals 16 (!) normal batteries when going against an abeam capital ship. I mean... that is a Wraithship with 8 batteries for 160pts operating on battleship levels.
What is less? Yeah, 8 is less then 16... but...

A Dragonship comparision goes off the chart (gunnery table).

2 Pulsars is indeed not as good as 6 lances, but which ship has 6 lances for 160pts? The Gothic has 4 at 180pts.

4 is as good as 2 pulsars and actually more reliable  as if you do not have lock on and whiff the dice you will get no hits four are twice as likely to do 'something' (and likely have longer range)

4 lances without lock on average 2 hits , with lock on its 3   ,2x pulsar without, averages 1.75 (ish) and with = about 3.5 so pulsars hae a higher max damage but IN lances tend to have longer range and better reliability .
 

Yes, their resilience is less but their speed is good and the second m (msM) the best defence in the game.


4 Nova Cannon in 2000pts is hardly cheese I think.

A potential 4d6 hits at extreme range is pretty cheese, if you have a good run with the hit dice you can gimp your opponents fleet before they are ever in range

An untailored Imperial Navy fleet will have a rough day against any Eldar fleet.

I maintain a balanced list with 'some' long range WB's will suffer less than a NC/torp heavy list ? and still play fine normally

And I hate tailoring.

Ditto , hence I preach balanced all comers lists

Hell if we can all agree on a 5+ Av stalker variant with sensible torp option Ill crawl back to the geek cave without the zappy death weapons....

The balancing on the dragonships is fine, if thats what the general consensus is I'm definitely coming round to the idea. I would still be great to have a lance upgrade on the escorts (2 his) and a negative points modifier for being a gimp(ghost)-ship.

M.

[horizon]

Quick: Nemesis is unofficial.

[Kraken]

Well it looked damn official !! oh well I suppose that explains the truly ludicrous amount of launches it has.....

[RayB HA]

As Eldar have MSM consider thier range to be increased by the medium speed band on average. So their Pulsars and Torps have a decent effective range, especially for escorts or light cruisers!

The Ghostship I proposed basically is immune to BM's but has most of the negatives and positives built in. It is harder to shoot at with gunnery weapons (pretty decent for Eldar) and suffers crits far less often. IMO this is a straight out 0pt 'upgrade'.

Cheers,

RayB 

 

[horizon]

Official = everything you can download at the GW site. And the FW rules for their models of the Tau are widely accepted as official. The FAQ2007 is a forgotten GW item...

On attack craft:
with all their special things added they are better then 6 normal markers. But alas, that's marginal since a lot depends on how the battle flows and if the Eldar can attack or must defend (vs Tau for example). The biggest Eldar nemesis are Necrons, long range batteries (Chaos) and individual bomber markers (Tau / Chaos).

4 Nova Cannons in 2000 really isn't cheese. It scatters, it hits, shields protect, bfi, etc. So 24 hits is max but you will hardly get there. The NC is a psychological weapon foremost, a damage weapon later.

I consider this an allround non-tailored IN fleet which I would take if I attended a tournament (1500pts):
Emperor
2x Dominator
2x Gothic
6x Sword
3x Cobra

Check this batrep:
http://www.sg.tacticalwargames.net/forum/index.php?topic=49.0

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Why would you take something that you know to be ineffective multiple times , 100 x crap = lots of crapness ? if you are freaking out I have to assume that you think NC's are actually very effective otherwise you would not be fussed about the proposed D Lance ? If you have to take multiples to in some way mitigate their ineffectiveness and I can only take one at premium points what is the problem ? what drawbacks does it remove ? it is EXACTLY the same as an NC with a shorter range , yes it ignores shields other than that and one of the hits being an auto crit it is the same , certainly more effective but just as likely to miss ? and undoubtedly more expensive, do you NC's half your speed too ?

It's called playing the odds. The NC can do lots of damage. When it hits and even then it has to punch through the shields. But there are lots of built in protection to keep this from happening on a regular basis that you need to bring them in multiples. You're removing ALL the protective measures in a fleet which already has so much advantages to begin with.

And I don't even know where you get the idea that NCs halve your speed.

A str 2 lance is no where near as good as say 6 normal lances infact str 3 is less reliable... IN can spam more and longer range lances than CWE, so I cannot understand why you would whine, I was not comparing SM to Eldar I was just pointing out some reasons why they are not complete rubbish as far as I am aware marines can put quite a few bomb cannons on the table. ok so they are not an ultra competitive list but in fairness marines should be all about the planetary assault and boarding actions , they should really be treated as (yet another) fleet option for the IN

Sure it's nowhere near as good. So where are these 6 lance ships you seem to think exist?

IN can spam long range lances. What are those going to do against your holofields? And yes against SM, IN is heads up with the long range lance availability. But Eldar lances when they hit are still mroe efficient on a 1:1 basis. Yes SM can put quite a FEW bombard cannons on the table. So few that you need to mass them up to make efficient use out of them. But my point was you seem to be comparing Eldar pulsar lances with SM bombards. They are nowhere at the same efficiency.

I think everyone agreed that a slight boost to the pulsar is probably in order but no one seems to think that a full pulsar is balanced/the way to go , hence I suggested a compromise , it's not even rules heavy or clunky .

Up to you guys. I'm just saying I don't think Eldar NEEDS another special weapon. If you want to go that route, then I guess just use the Dark Eldar Phantom Lance if you want something different.

Yeah , we have already established that you feel nc's suck but insist on fielding as many as you can in this knowledge. perhaps if you opted for a more balanced fleet ? fielding  NC spam should have some kinda downside, wargames should always have a paper to someone's rock, or scissors to someone's paper thats why there is a need to write balanced all comers lists ?

Fielding NC spams by itself already is a downside. Less AC. Less long range WBs. Less effective battleship. It has nothing to counter an AC heavy fleet. It has NOTHING to counter Eldar. That's the problem already. But I am in the camp of improving the NC but limiting their availability as by fluff it is a rare weapon.

A quick browse through the available IN ships shows me that there are no less than 11 ships available to you with 60cm WB's , pitiful short range ? ..... please (not to mention all the 45cm stuff)

Emperor, Retribution, Oberon, Apocalypse, Vengeance, Overlord. 6 ships. Where's the other 5? Out of those 6 ships, you need 220 points at least first to get the cheapest option in. With the battleships, it becomes 330 points. Not that cheap.

It wont make them cheesier. The points will be going somewhere you consider cheesy regardless of whether the Phoenix is in or not, except now there are 500 points you can more easily catch and kill (even more so than a stalker), plus your opponent will actually have more firepower/hits/mobility if he simply takes 2 dragonships, under the proposed faq change a squadron of two dragon ships will be able to deliver a str 16 Eldar torpedo salvo ......

Maybe phoenix ships would 'have' to be taken in games of at least 1500 points

Even at 1500 points, it's a very efficient ship. Sorry, I would not agree to this ship.

I have stated repeatedly that I have no wish to power up the fleet just to give it some degree of diversity and similar 'basic' ship options as EVERY other fleet. I have even asked to make the escorts less powerful than you would have them (with the pulsars you whine about) and that I would pay over the odds in points to be able to field it ?

Diversity, fine. Additional cheesy weapons? Not fine.

Don't play such lopsided lists then ?

And what would you have IN play against Eldar? Any IN list is a lopsided list in favor of the Eldar.

I want ONE just ONE decent battleship for my fleet that actually fits with the fleet, that is hardly much to ask , you have access to a Bewildering array of battleships to suit any need/build /opponent , I came across an IN battleship with 2 sets of 6 !? launch bays today, I would cut off my left ball to have a ship that could launch half as many craft available to my fleet. The IN list is wonderfully diverse not to mention having the option of reserve admech/marines/inquisition

The Void Stalker is a more than decent battleship which can run rings around any IN battleship. Out of 4 battleships, putting a BM on 3 of them results in them NOT TURNING unless they Burn Retro. BTW, The Nemesis is NOT OFFICIAL.

As you have said though, they are no good due to inaccuracy so you take 4 to compensate. I have ONE and it will miss just as much , 4 nova cannons @ 2k is cheesy against any list but Eldar,  if your regular opponents feature several different fleets including eldar you should be considering this meta when writing your fleets.

How can your NC miss? You already said it was a guess weapon right? Even with the present NC rules, your ship will just move so close to your target that you won't miss that much and when you hit it will hurt the target. After which the battleship will just pulsar it to death.

I got muddled up with the original NC rules it works exactly the same as an NC not a planet killer or a guess wep , just an NC . if it ignores the shields then anything you follow up with will still hit shields 3-4 hits including a critical is hardly D-E-A-D now is it ? (if you account for the inaccuracy and brace for impact saves its unlikely to do a huge amount), putting it in range of your entire opponents fleets wb's would not be an act of deep intelligence ... was not talking about wasting your fleet but if you were going to just sit the phoenix ship out of usual engagement range and fire the D lance once every other turn (given the aforementioned accuracy gripe) you are basically letting your opponent fight say 1500 ish points of your fleet with 2 k of his, nice one ! I think I see why you struggle against eldar Cheesy NC spam is no doubt lethal against any other fleet , if you had a more balanced/less crutchy list you would be able to play and win against Eldar, you do have the tools available to your fleet ?

Really? And if your battleship uses AC as well as torps? Turrets can only attack either or. What need for shields then? It's a D-E-A-D battleship no matter how you look at it. Necrons have no shields. Battleships typically have 4 shields. Pulsar lances on Lock On are nasty.

You are still not getting it. IN whether taking all NC, whether taking NC and torp balanced, whether taking NC lite, they all cannot handle the Eldar fleet, not unless the Eldar player screws up big time. I don't just use the NC heavy fleet. My fleet lists are usually as balanced as they can be. Why? Because I do not like to tailor.  What may work against one fleet will most likely not work against another.

The Thing you have missed really is that they have proportionately less of everything (firepower/hits) pulsars are not as good as just having say 6 lances and they are made of wet paper and are prone to crits, they need this to work like glass hammers to actually BE an eldar fleet.  having access to one special weapon in a fleet (of any size) is hardly game breaking, having as many as you can squeeze in might be considered so, but with my proposal it is not spammable or abuseable, just characterful

Best

M.

You haven't seen the all Nightshade or all Aconite fleet have you? Horizon, maybe you can enlighten him more since you are an Eldar player. Wet paper and prone to crits are their weakness. When they can are hit. Eldar players, the ones I know about, tend not to make this happen if they can help it. Point is though, Eldar can't have everything. Are you really losing with your Eldar fleet that much that you need something to boost their broken-ness all the more?

Lastly, I do not see where the characterful comes in. You want a battleship. Fine. We agree on that. For the last time, take the Void Stalker, put 5+ armor on it (heck, we agree on this as well) and have fun with it.

[Kraken]

It's called playing the odds. The NC can do lots of damage. When it hits and even then it has to punch through the shields. But there are lots of built in protection to keep this from happening on a regular basis that you need to bring them in multiples. You're removing ALL the protective measures in a fleet which already has so much advantages to begin with.

And I don't even know where you get the idea that NCs halve your speed.

If you had actually read the rules on the phoenix ship 'special' weps that you have been freaking out about, you would have realized that firing them stops them being MSM that turn, so " half movement" and removing a great deal of the 'protection' you would normally expect from the second move. so my one single NC equivalent halves my ships speed/protection , I was asking if your spammable NC's did the same ?

People whine about the MSM ,So when I create weapons of which as I have repeatedly noted you can only ever have one per fleet,that also stops the ship being MSM do you still complain ? I just don't see how it can be that game breaking.

Sure it's nowhere near as good. So where are these 6 lance ships you seem to think exist?

Dunno if people are recognizing gothic magazine as 'official' on here, I thought anything that was in a GW publication would be. So lets just say that even str4 lances are  more reliable than str 2 pulsars although of course the max damage is higher for pulsars. *sidenote* Eldar energy weps are supposed to be really really good btw.


IN can spam long range lances. What are those going to do against your holofields? And yes against SM, IN is heads up with the long range lance availability. But Eldar lances when they hit are still mroe efficient on a 1:1 basis. Yes SM can put quite a FEW bombard cannons on the table. So few that you need to mass them up to make efficient use out of them. But my point was you seem to be comparing Eldar pulsar lances with SM bombards. They are nowhere at the same efficiency.

Against eldar , sure the bomb's loose a major advantage as 4+ crit is the same whatever however the ability to generate criticals on a 4+ from 4+ to hit is pretty damn good for all comers.......


Up to you guys. I'm just saying I don't think Eldar NEEDS another special weapon. If you want to go that route, then I guess just use the Dark Eldar Phantom Lance if you want something different.

Phantom lance would do as well.

Fielding NC spams by itself already is a downside. Less AC. Less long range WBs. Less effective battleship. It has nothing to counter an AC heavy fleet. It has NOTHING to counter Eldar. That's the problem already. But I am in the camp of improving the NC but limiting their availability as by fluff it is a rare weapon.

On that we agree, I LIKE special weps they make the game more interesting , but they should be ,rare ancient/forgotten tech and non spammable , I think allowing lock on to be used for the scatter dice would be fair for NC's  that way higher leadership (better crews) being better shots is kindov accounted for..... but only allow 1 per 100pts or part thereof , so one in 0-1000 , two in 1000-2000 and so on.

Emperor, Retribution, Oberon, Apocalypse, Vengeance, Overlord. 6 ships. Where's the other 5? Out of those 6 ships, you need 220 points at least first to get the cheapest option in. With the battleships, it becomes 330 points. Not that cheap.

Start there : http://yenlowang.free.fr/warhammer-forum/BFG/BFG_-_Additional_Ships_Compendium_1.4.pdf

 Then look through the main book and Armada although I think we are possibly having headaches with what is 'official' as far as me and my gaming group are concerned GW publication = official

Even with 'only' six the tools are there plus what is wrong with 45cm WB's ?

Even at 1500 points, it's a very efficient ship. Sorry, I would not agree to this ship.

Tell you what ,why not try playing it a few times (remember it looses MSM when using the spec weps, its in the rules) , then if it completely breaks the games and sucks fair enough and your opinion will be borne out by actual experience, but if you do , please be honest. I will be getting some friends to test it in a few games soon so I get some objective feedback myself.

Old proverb: "Don't knock it till you have tried it...."

Diversity, fine. Additional cheesy weapons? Not fine.

prove they are cheesy , the numbers say not....

And what would you have IN play against Eldar? Any IN list is a lopsided list in favor of the Eldar.

If you say so, I have been playing eldar off and on for years , I still get punished and loose if I drop the ball , good yes , forgiving of mistakes or using them 'wrong' no....

The Void Stalker is a more than decent battleship which can run rings around any IN battleship. Out of 4 battleships, putting a BM on 3 of them results in them NOT TURNING unless they Burn Retro. BTW,

The Nemesis is NOT OFFICIAL.

Yes, I think we had established that a while back ........


Really? And if your battleship uses AC as well as torps? Turrets can only attack either or. What need for shields then? It's a D-E-A-D battleship no matter how you look at it. Necrons have no shields. Battleships typically have 4 shields. Pulsar lances on Lock On are nasty.

So you are now saying wether I get my NC variant or not your ship will die ? so the NC variant makes no difference then ? Whats the problem ?

You are still not getting it. IN whether taking all NC, whether taking NC and torp balanced, whether taking NC lite, they all cannot handle the Eldar fleet, not unless the Eldar player screws up big time. I don't just use the NC heavy fleet. My fleet lists are usually as balanced as they can be. Why? Because I do not like to tailor.  What may work against one fleet will most likely not work against another.


You haven't seen the all Nightshade or all Aconite fleet have you? Horizon, maybe you can enlighten him more since you are an Eldar player. Wet paper and prone to crits are their weakness. When they can are hit. Eldar players, the ones I know about, tend not to make this happen if they can help it. Point is though, Eldar can't have everything. Are you really losing with your Eldar fleet that much that you need something to boost their broken-ness all the more?

But we are talking about the CWE fleet and having a battleship for it , how is discussing the admittedly powerful CE fleet going to bear relevance to our debate. As previously stated my motivation here is to pursue a more 'complete' fleet not more or less powerful , Just want a BB , having the special weps or battleship wont mean I win any more or less than I currently do , but it will mean I derive more pleasure from my fleet , how it looks on the table , the process of fleet selection, and most importantly ,how it feels

Lastly, I do not see where the characterful comes in.

Read some Eldar fluff , look at the weapons and technology that gives them flavour and makes them unique in 40k, obviously Gw and FW feel that D weapons and devastating laser weapons are both flavorful and characterful for Eldar.


You want a battleship. Fine. We agree on that. For the last time, take the Void Stalker, put 5+ armor on it (heck, we agree on this as well) and have fun with it.

Chuck in a torp option , and we're cooking !!

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

If you had actually read the rules on the phoenix ship 'special' weps that you have been freaking out about, you would have realized that firing them stops them being MSM that turn, so " half movement" and removing a great deal of the 'protection' you would normally expect from the second move. so my one single NC equivalent halves my ships speed/protection , I was asking if your spammable NC's did the same ?

So fine, you lose the second half of your MSM move. NC armed ships generally move only their minimum movement in order to maximize their range because if they get within 30 cm, then the NC becomes useless. USELESS. So NC armed ships DO generally move at half speed. And LOSE the NC once it gets within 30 cm. So now what?

People whine about the MSM ,So when I create weapons of which as I have repeatedly noted you can only ever have one per fleet,that also stops the ship being MSM do you still complain ? I just don't see how it can be that game breaking.

Yes, I still complain. Because again, you are adding a broken weapon into an already broken fleet. Sorry, not happening.

Dunno if people are recognizing gothic magazine as 'official' on here, I thought anything that was in a GW publication would be. So lets just say that even str4 lances are  more reliable than str 2 pulsars although of course the max damage is higher for pulsars. *sidenote* Eldar energy weps are supposed to be really really good btw.

Yes they're supposed to be better. That's not the problem here. You don't see me shouting nerf the Pulsars. No, I've accepted they should be better. I am objecting to adding anything more that can boost the advantages of Eldar even if it is only one.

Against eldar , sure the bomb's loose a major advantage as 4+ crit is the same whatever however the ability to generate criticals on a 4+ from 4+ to hit is pretty damn good for all comers.......

SM Bombards are actually pointless against Eldar since Eldar take damage on 4+, which the bombards do, and crit on 4+, which the bombards do. SM bombards are better against other races giving them a chance to win games.

Phantom lance would do as well.

See, we agree on another thing again, which I don't think makes CWE broken.

On that we agree, I LIKE special weps they make the game more interesting , but they should be ,rare ancient/forgotten tech and non spammable , I think allowing lock on to be used for the scatter dice would be fair for NC's  that way higher leadership (better crews) being better shots is kindov accounted for..... but only allow 1 per 100pts or part thereof , so one in 0-1000 , two in 1000-2000 and so on.

I wouldn't even mind taking only 1 NC in 1000 if it becomes an accurate and deadly weapon. Have to retool the Gothic fleet though since the Dominator there can be taken in spades or make the Dominator a torp ship and then add the option for NC.

Start there : http://yenlowang.free.fr/warhammer-forum/BFG/BFG_-_Additional_Ships_Compendium_1.4.pdf

 Then look through the main book and Armada although I think we are possibly having headaches with what is 'official' as far as me and my gaming group are concerned GW publication = official

Even with 'only' six the tools are there plus what is wrong with 45cm WB's ?

Additional Compendum, not official. Sorry. BFG manual, Armada and PDFs found in SG site only.

Again, those 45 cm WBs come at a premium of at least 110 points, unless one takes the Tyrant and even then one needs 195 points to field one effectively. Am not a fan of the Tyrant myself. So long range IN weapons come at a high cost, which is fine. I understand and accept that. Price of doing war in BFG.

Tell you what ,why not try playing it a few times (remember it looses MSM when using the spec weps, its in the rules) , then if it completely breaks the games and sucks fair enough and your opinion will be borne out by actual experience, but if you do , please be honest. I will be getting some friends to test it in a few games soon so I get some objective feedback myself.

Old proverb: "Don't knock it till you have tried it...."

I follow this: "If the race is broken, don't further break it". I would rather you play IN with NC against every race then figure out whether your proposal is broken or not. Really. Or better yet, you try it out and see how bad it can get.

prove they are cheesy , the numbers say not....

I've already proven it but you don't see it focusing only on the "limited" availability because you are an Eldar player. Look at it from another faction's player.

If you say so, I have been playing eldar off and on for years , I still get punished and loose if I drop the ball , good yes , forgiving of mistakes or using them 'wrong' no....

"If you drop the ball." That's all I need to read.

So you are now saying wether I get my NC variant or not your ship will die ? so the NC variant makes no difference then ? Whats the problem ?

No, I am saying if you add that weapon into a ship with AC, shields won't be effective. But hey, let's say you take all lances and torps. Even with 4 shields, this weapon supported by 6 lances which potentially can have a total of 18 shots, EIGHTEEN, esp on Lock On which you would do anyway since you will be losing your second move plus torps or AC, will result in a dead ship.

But we are talking about the CWE fleet and having a battleship for it , how is discussing the admittedly powerful CE fleet going to bear relevance to our debate. As previously stated my motivation here is to pursue a more 'complete' fleet not more or less powerful , Just want a BB , having the special weps or battleship wont mean I win any more or less than I currently do , but it will mean I derive more pleasure from my fleet , how it looks on the table , the process of fleet selection, and most importantly ,how it feels

Yeah but I'm pointing out Eldar weaponry is very effective even though you may not think so.

Of course you will derive pleasure from it. Now take a look from your opponent's point of view. That is how ships and weapons should be judged. Not from your own. Heck I could create an escort ship with 1000 as the strength of all its stats and I would derive pleasure from it. But my opponent's would beat the heck out of me if I put that on the table.

Won't mean you win any less, I would agree. Won't win any more? You're mistaken there. Without the ship, it's not a sure guarantee. With the ship, wins become almost guaranteed.

Read some Eldar fluff , look at the weapons and technology that gives them flavour and makes them unique in 40k, obviously Gw and FW feel that D weapons and devastating laser weapons are both flavorful and characterful for Eldar.

I've never seen Eldar fluff of them having a long ranged weapon. It's never their style. Disruption weapons tell me that it can disrupt something, not destroy something. You laser weapons in BFG are already devastating. You do not need to add any more.

Chuck in a torp option , and we're cooking !!

Fine, give it a torp option. I don't mind if they can take whatever weapons they can from CE, CWE or DE. Pick from there and run with it.

But none of that D stuff and improved lances.

[Kraken]

So fine, you lose the second half of your MSM move. NC armed ships generally move only their minimum movement in order to maximize their range because if they get within 30 cm, then the NC becomes useless. USELESS. So NC armed ships DO generally move at half speed. And LOSE the NC once it gets within 30 cm. So now what?

you get no extra protection from movement your ships dont take crits on a 4+ it's not even remotely related , you know why loosing the second move is important to eldar , makes no odds to you , as you say , you WANT to go slower to keep at longer range ......

Yes, I still complain. Because again, you are adding a broken weapon into an already broken fleet. Sorry, not happening.

most people will agree that they are tough to play against IF your opponent is good , but broken ?!  no ..

Yes they're supposed to be better. That's not the problem here. You don't see me shouting nerf the Pulsars. No, I've accepted they should be better. I am objecting to adding anything more that can boost the advantages of Eldar even if it is only one.

le sigh, again for the last time , if i don't get the 500 point ship with the special wep then I just buy 500 points worth of other 'broken' stuff, the list as far as you are concerned will be broken either way and you will call 'cheese' and 'broken' if the ship is in or not , I really doubt having a battleship will make the slightest difference to the power level of the fleet . corsairs arguably work better without a stalker ?


Against eldar , sure the bomb's loose a major advantage as 4+ crit is the same whatever however the ability to generate criticals on a 4+ from 4+ to hit is pretty damn good for all comers.......

SM Bombards are actually pointless against Eldar since Eldar take damage on 4+, which the bombards do, and crit on 4+, which the bombards do. SM bombards are better against other races giving them a chance to win games.

I just said the benefits of bombards are marginal as Eldar take crits on a 4+ anyway ?! but great for allcomers , you just said the same thing as me but different ?


I wouldn't even mind taking only 1 NC in 1000 if it becomes an accurate and deadly weapon. Have to retool the Gothic fleet though since the Dominator there can be taken in spades or make the Dominator a torp ship and then add the option for NC.

See you only want for your fleet what I want for mine , an interesting and cool characterful special wep that actually works and is actually special because you can only get one (maybe) two of them.

Additional Compendum, not official. Sorry. BFG manual, Armada and PDFs found in SG site only.

For years and years GW publication = official , i was not aware that had changed at any point .


Again, those 45 cm WBs come at a premium of at least 110 points, unless one takes the Tyrant and even then one needs 195 points to field one effectively. Am not a fan of the Tyrant myself. So long range IN weapons come at a high cost, which is fine. I understand and accept that. Price of doing war in BFG.

That seems pretty cheap to me given that the cheapest CWE ship other than escorts is 160 .... you NEED long range batteries in your fleet, I imagine there is a good reason for them costing a bit more.... 

I follow this: "If the race is broken, don't further break it". I would rather you play IN with NC against every race then figure out whether your proposal is broken or not. Really. Or better yet, you try it out and see how bad it can get.

Thing is you are assuming that any changes would further break it without sitting on any evidence to support it , I wanted to see for myself rather than argue with you so i have arranged for some playtests , if it does indeed perform as you 'theorize'  over the course of several games I will gladly concede your point.

I've already proven it but you don't see it focusing only on the "limited" availability because you are an Eldar player. Look at it from another faction's player.

I'm sorry But I must completely and totally disagree that you have in any way 'proved' it is broken . you have indeed argued against it with theory but you have no playtesting no nothing to honestly base your argument on . you have just had a knee jerk reaction to the possibility of another fleet getting access to an NC type wep, you have completely skimmed over or marginalized the negatives. Play a few games I will be interested to hear your feedback and thoughts.


"If you drop the ball." That's all I need to read.

Any general that plays any army/fleet who 'drops the ball' deserve to loose , eldar are less forgiving of mistakes ...

No, I am saying if you add that weapon into a ship with AC, shields won't be effective. But hey, let's say you take all lances and torps. Even with 4 shields, this weapon supported by 6 lances which potentially can have a total of 18 shots, EIGHTEEN, esp on Lock On which you would do anyway since you will be losing your second move plus torps or AC, will result in a dead ship.

2 dragonships can have six pulsars six torps and 4 AC's at present and are faster and have more hits , they will achieve the same result in the scenario you put forth but for nealy 100 less points, they will get away further too . just to put it into context for you ....



Yeah but I'm pointing out Eldar weaponry is very effective even though you may not think so.

 I think it is effective ,I have at no point said there is anything wrong with Eldar weps i just wanted something a bit different ..


Of course you will derive pleasure from it. Now take a look from your opponent's point of view. That is how ships and weapons should be judged. Not from your own. Heck I could create an escort ship with 1000 as the strength of all its stats and I would derive pleasure from it. But my opponent's would beat the heck out of me if I put that on the table.

Won't mean you win any less, I would agree. Won't win any more? You're mistaken there. Without the ship, it's not a sure guarantee. With the ship, wins become almost guaranteed.

Hot air and wind , you say it is broken based on your theory and experience I say the opposite , maybe no one is right and no one is wrong , the only way we will know is by playing with it , my opinion will not be objective, so I have asked my friends to play it , I have not even told them I wrote it as I do not wish to effect the outcome in any way. I still think you should play some games VS and see if it is actually as bad as you 'think' it might be.


I've never seen Eldar fluff of them having a long ranged weapon. It's never their style. Disruption weapons tell me that it can disrupt something, not destroy something. You laser weapons in BFG are already devastating. You do not need to add any more.

D- weps are advanced vortex weps , they are deadly in 40k and destroy the hell outta titans in apocalypse (they also inflict instant death and ignore shields)

Fine, give it a torp option. I don't mind if they can take whatever weapons they can from CE, CWE or DE. Pick from there and run with it.

[/color]
Just as Ray suggested str 8 torps exchangeable for the launch bays, thats all.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

you get no extra protection from movement your ships dont take crits on a 4+ it's not even remotely related , you know why loosing the second move is important to eldar , makes no odds to you , as you say , you WANT to go slower to keep at longer range ......

Uh huh but if you are firing from the range of the NC, you get 2-3 turns of no one being able to shoot back at you, unless you are playing on a small table. Then when combat is near, the battleship can forgo firing the NC, zip to the back arc of the enemy fleet and then  next turn be in a position to hit the opposing fleet from behind where the opposing fleet can't do much to hurt you.  Trust me when I say i know the tactical maneuverability of Eldar and how to make it work for me.

most people will agree that they are tough to play against IF your opponent is good , but broken ?!  no ..

Eldar is broken. It wins prolly 80% of the time at the hands of an average player esp on a table with terrain. In the hands of an ace player, they can be hardly beat. That's how broken it is. You already imply how well your win-loss ratio is.

le sigh, again for the last time , if i don't get the 500 point ship with the special wep then I just buy 500 points worth of other 'broken' stuff, the list as far as you are concerned will be broken either way and you will call 'cheese' and 'broken' if the ship is in or not , I really doubt having a battleship will make the slightest difference to the power level of the fleet . corsairs arguably work better without a stalker ?

And again, for the last time, I don't care if you get only one of it. That's still one too many. Again, the question is not about the battleship but the weapon. And yes, even Horizon will say that with a Stalker, the CE fleet works as well if not better coz now I have 45 cm pulsar lances to use.

I just said the benefits of bombards are marginal as Eldar take crits on a 4+ anyway ?! but great for allcomers , you just said the same thing as me but different ?

Yup agreeing with you on that and in return, SM do not have a regular sized cruiser, only have 30 cm bombards and only have two capital ships to choose from.

See you only want for your fleet what I want for mine , an interesting and cool characterful special wep that actually works and is actually special because you can only get one (maybe) two of them.

The difference is you're adding something to your already broken fleet. You DON'T need it. I dislike NC spams and would like to do something about it. Increasing it's efficiency, not overwhelmingly but limiting it's availability is what I want done. You can check the old Warp Rift mags for my ideas for change in the NC rules. I kept most of the limitations but only bumped up the effectiveness by a bit. I am not ask for shield ignoring, no minimum range, autocritting NC shots even though IN need it more than Eldar.

That seems pretty cheap to me given that the cheapest CWE ship other than escorts is 160 .... you NEED long range batteries in your fleet, I imagine there is a good reason for them costing a bit more....  

Cheap? How so? For me to get 45 cm using a basic Tyrant, I need 185 points and that's not even the efficient one. In an Armageddon fleet list, I have to pay 120 points on top of the 245 points for an Armageddon and 230 points for an Overlord so it comes out to 365 and 350 points respectively. I won't even get into the Mars. And that's just for cruisers. But yes, as I said, that's the price IN pays for doing war.

Thing is you are assuming that any changes would further break it without sitting on any evidence to support it , I wanted to see for myself rather than argue with you so i have arranged for some playtests , if it does indeed perform as you 'theorize'  over the course of several games I will gladly concede your point.

Actually the burden is on you to prove that adding those two weapons won't break Eldar further. Hey it's what you want. Prove it then ask me to play it.

I'm sorry But I must completely and totally disagree that you have in any way 'proved' it is broken . you have indeed argued against it with theory but you have no playtesting no nothing to honestly base your argument on . you have just had a knee jerk reaction to the possibility of another fleet getting access to an NC type wep, you have completely skimmed over or marginalized the negatives. Play a few games I will be interested to hear your feedback and thoughts.

Showing that a weapon which is like the NC without the limitations is proof already of how broken it can get. I've given you scenarios on how it can singlehandedly destroy a battleship. The negatives are hardly enough to offset the positives added. You still won't accept that, fine. But you haven't played it and against it yourself so we're both on the same plane. You have no right to ask me to play a few games then give my thoughts when  you haven't even played it and against it yourself (while using a non-Eldar fleet).

Any general that plays any army/fleet who 'drops the ball' deserve to loose , eldar are less forgiving of mistakes ...

But this is more emphatic when it comes to Eldar. That is the only way Eldar will lose. Other fleet actions involving other races have equal opportunities for each player to win even without dropping the ball.

2 dragonships can have six pulsars six torps and 4 AC's at present and are faster and have more hits , they will achieve the same result in the scenario you put forth but for nealy 100 less points, they will get away further too . just to put it into context for you ....

6 30 cm Pulsars and 6 torps and 4 AC vs 6 45 cm Pulsars, D6 NC shot with autocrit and either 8 torps or 4 AC. 520 points vs 450 points. I don't see how it's 100 points less. You also have to add the Wraithships for the Dragonships whereas the Phoenix can fit automatically in 1000 points (or 1500, doesn't matter). It's your choice what you want to play, Dragonships or the Phoenix. It all comes down to playstyle. It doesn't mean either option is not effective and the Phoenix obviously comes out to be more effective on an individual ship basis.

I think it is effective ,I have at no point said there is anything wrong with Eldar weps i just wanted something a bit different ..

That's the price you pay with already better and effective weapons. Any further additions will not be well received.

Hot air and wind , you say it is broken based on your theory and experience I say the opposite , maybe no one is right and no one is wrong , the only way we will know is by playing with it , my opinion will not be objective, so I have asked my friends to play it , I have not even told them I wrote it as I do not wish to effect the outcome in any way. I still think you should play some games VS and see if it is actually as bad as you 'think' it might be.

I say broken because the entire community basically agrees Eldar're broken literally (as in breaks a lot of the rules) and figuratively (they win godawful lotsa times). Tell us. What's your win-loss ratio? My IN would roughly be in the 60-40 Win-Loss. Now add these weapons you want. Doesn't broken+broken lead to all the more broken?

D- weps are advanced vortex weps , they are deadly in 40k and destroy the hell outta titans in apocalypse (they also inflict instant death and ignore shields)

Titans are minute in comparison when compared to 5km long battleships, 3km long cruisers or even 1km long escorts with weapons designed to kill ships. Even a Firestorm can obliterate a Titan from orbit with it's lance weaponry.

Just as Ray suggested str 8 torps exchangeable for the launch bays, thats all.

I don't mind that either. So how about you play with the Void Stalker Heavy first before you decide Eldar NEEDS, not wants, weapons like those.

[horizon]

The Compendium is an unofficial thing. A collection of vessels which have been published in various magazines and from which some it made into an official book.

[BlueDagger]

Lol I don't pay attention to the thread for a bit and stuff goes crazy again lol. Why are we considering adding more ships and more drastic changes? Just a reminder this is an FAQ which i thought Ray got under control before .

Admiral, yes IN have a rough time against Eldar, Eldar have a rough time against Necron, Necron have a rough time against Chaos. I think we can all agree there is a LOT of aspects of BFG that are hardly balanced. You have a chip on your shoulder from fighting escort spam CE and we are fully aware, but please don't go into more nerf talk because you believe CE/CWE are broken.

Also, no offense but I'm not a fan of MMS either. Too many changes from the original design.

[horizon]

Lol I don't pay attention to the thread for a bit and stuff goes crazy again lol. Why are we considering adding more ships and more drastic changes? Just a reminder this is an FAQ which i thought Ray got under control before .

This thread is a CWE specific spin-off from the FAQ where Ray is testing the waters for a CWE pdf change.
More ships: well, that is Kraken who wants a CWE battleship. Ray says the CWE are getting the Void Stalker (FAQ). Unofficialy I'd like to add the old Space fleet models.
More Drastic changes: which ones?

Admiral, yes IN have a rough time against Eldar, Eldar have a rough time against Necron, Necron have a rough time against Chaos. I think we can all agree there is a LOT of aspects of BFG that are hardly balanced. You have a chip on your shoulder from fighting escort spam CE and we are fully aware, but please don't go into more nerf talk because you believe CE/CWE are broken.

CE & CWE are broken (hey, I played with msm ). The rule system is broken. Necrons do not have a paticular rough time against Chaos. Necrons negate everything Eldar MSM has.

[quoteAlso, no offense but I'm not a fan of MMS either. Too many changes from the original design.[/quote]
No offense taken. Too many changes? Which ones...

But, anyhoo.,, those changes are needed since the original design is flawed & broken & bad & etc.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Admiral, yes IN have a rough time against Eldar, Eldar have a rough time against Necron, Necron have a rough time against Chaos. I think we can all agree there is a LOT of aspects of BFG that are hardly balanced. You have a chip on your shoulder from fighting escort spam CE and we are fully aware, but please don't go into more nerf talk because you believe CE/CWE are broken.

And where did I say that I wanted Eldar nerfed? Point it out to me please. On the contrary, even with the Eldar being powerful as they are, I already pointed out that I accept the advantages they have. I even agree that CWE should get a Void Stalker-esque battleship with 5+ armor and access to all the existing Eldar weaponry. I even said, let the CWE escort have the regular pulsar. If not the DE pulsar. Are those about nerfing Eldar, whatever variety? No.

What I am against is adding that NC and Pulsar special weapon or any other weapons which may result in even more broken Eldar.

Please READ the posts before you make accusations which are patently false.

[Kraken]

And where did I say that I wanted Eldar nerfed? Point it out to me please. On the contrary, even with the Eldar being powerful as they are, I already pointed out that I accept the advantages they have. I even agree that CWE should get a Void Stalker-esque battleship with 5+ armor and access to all the existing Eldar weaponry. I even said, let the CWE escort have the regular pulsar. If not the DE pulsar. Are those about nerfing Eldar, whatever variety? No.

You did not and I also feel we have reached some kinda happy compromise, however I have to agree with blue dagger somewhat, having never being involved with a forum discussion with you before I did find the 'chip-on-your-shoulder) a little difficult to get past myself....

What I am against is adding that NC and Pulsar special weapon or any other weapons which may result in even more broken Eldar.

As usual I still feel that any special weps will not change the power balance one jot......


Please READ the posts before you make accusations which are patently false.

I must say sometimes I have felt you have not read or mis-read my posts and subsequently gone off on one, tis good advice for anyone that uses a forum

This thread is a CWE specific spin-off from the FAQ where Ray is testing the waters for a CWE pdf change.
More ships: well, that is Kraken who wants a CWE battleship. Ray says the CWE are getting the Void Stalker (FAQ). Unofficialy I'd like to add the old Space fleet models.

I too would not mind seeing the old Space fleet models , they are very elegant and much more like how eldar ships still appear in art. IN real life one of my loves is yachts so choosing to use the eldar fleet was not difficult ....


[quoteAlso, no offense but I'm not a fan of MMS either. Too many changes from the original design.

I do not want to ruffle any feathers but I must cast my vote in favor of MSM.(not saying it is perfect)

But, anyhoo.,, those changes are needed since the original design is flawed & broken & bad & etc.

flawed yes , most wargames rules to some degree are , if you have been playing GW games for any length of time you will be familiar  with the syndrome.

Uh huh but if you are firing from the range of the NC, you get 2-3 turns of no one being able to shoot back at you, unless you are playing on a small table. Then when combat is near, the battleship can forgo firing the NC, zip to the back arc of the enemy fleet and then  next turn be in a position to hit the opposing fleet from behind where the opposing fleet can't do much to hurt you.  Trust me when I say i know the tactical maneuverability of Eldar and how to make it work for me.

Mine is much shorter range than the usual NC.... you said you had read the rules ?

Eldar is broken. It wins prolly 80% of the time at the hands of an average player esp on a table with terrain. In the hands of an ace player, they can be hardly beat. That's how broken it is. You already imply how well your win-loss ratio is.

My win loss ratio is pretty much identical in 40k with Eldar, which is not considered a broken army, they play very differently from other armies too but no one is trying to re write them into a space marine type list because that is what people are used too....

most of the armies/fleets in either game are tough to beat in the hands of an ace player, believe


And again, for the last time, I don't care if you get only one of it. That's still one too many. Again, the question is not about the battleship but the weapon. And yes, even Horizon will say that with a Stalker, the CE fleet works as well if not better coz now I have 45 cm pulsar lances to use.

A few posts ago you were expounding the power of escort only lists, we all know they are much worse than a stalker list in the right hands, so don't change your tune now just because it suits your stance.....


The difference is you're adding something to your already broken fleet. You DON'T need it. I dislike NC spams and would like to do something about it. Increasing it's efficiency, not overwhelmingly but limiting it's availability is what I want done. You can check the old Warp Rift mags for my ideas for change in the NC rules. I kept most of the limitations but only bumped up the effectiveness by a bit. I am not ask for shield ignoring, no minimum range, autocritting NC shots even though IN need it more than Eldar.

The reason I made it ignore shields was not  to cheese it up, but in fact because that is how D-weps work, there is a precident within existing published games workshop rules for D weps functioning in this manner.

1 crit is no big deal, try having everything being crit on a 4+ all the time

Thing is you are assuming that any changes would further break it without sitting on any evidence to support it , I wanted to see for myself rather than argue with you so i have arranged for some playtests , if it does indeed perform as you 'theorize'  over the course of several games I will gladly concede your point.

Actually the burden is on you to prove that adding those two weapons won't break Eldar further. Hey it's what you want. Prove it then ask me to play it.

No problems as I said I have already made some effort towards supporting my claims and will report back at some point. I think you are just afraid to be proved wrong 

Showing that a weapon which is like the NC without the limitations is proof already of how broken it can get. I've given you scenarios on how it can singlehandedly destroy a battleship. The negatives are hardly enough to offset the positives added. You still won't accept that, fine. But you haven't played it and against it yourself so we're both on the same plane. You have no right to ask me to play a few games then give my thoughts when  you haven't even played it and against it yourself (while using a non-Eldar fleet).

There are plenty of limitations , you just cannot see them .I'm waiting for objective opinions from other people before i play with or against it, im hardly going to be the most un biased judge now am I ??



But this is more emphatic when it comes to Eldar. That is the only way Eldar will lose.

Thats flat out fiction , I have lost games when I have played near perfectly,some people are very good/lucky with their fleets you are also forgetting that the dice can also wreck the best laid plans.

2 dragonships can have six pulsars six torps and 4 AC's at present and are faster and have more hits , they will achieve the same result in the scenario you put forth but for nealy 100 less points, they will get away further too . just to put it into context for you ....

6 30 cm Pulsars and 6 torps and 4 AC vs 6 45 cm Pulsars, D6 NC shot with autocrit and either 8 torps or 4 AC. 520 points vs 450 points. I don't see how it's 100 points less.

I said 'nearly' , 70  is the best part of 100 so 'nearly'?

You also have to add the Wraithships for the Dragonships whereas the Phoenix can fit automatically in 1000 points (or 1500, doesn't matter). It's your choice what you want to play, Dragonships or the Phoenix. It all comes down to playstyle. It doesn't mean either option is not effective and the Phoenix obviously comes out to be more effective on an individual ship basis.

Yes well it would be a pretty poor BB if it was not ....

That's the price you pay with already better and effective weapons. Any further additions will not be well received.

By you, what gives you the right to put words in the mouth of every single person that plays BFG, most of the people I have shown it so far thinks it is pretty cool, some even said they would enjoy the challange, some people said it would need limiting ie one per fleet and only at 1500 plus. Everyone has at very least been constructive.

I say broken because the entire community basically agrees Eldar're broken literally (as in breaks a lot of the rules) and figuratively (they win godawful lotsa times). Tell us. What's your win-loss ratio? My IN would roughly be in the 60-40 Win-Loss. Now add these weapons you want. Doesn't broken+broken lead to all the more broken?

Not being funny but I don not loose much , at any of the wargames I play , I have a regular pool of at least 30 opponents and do wargames at least three times a week . I also run the local games club, my win-loss ratio has nothing to do with the fleet I use.

A bad workman ......

D- weps are advanced vortex weps , they are deadly in 40k and destroy the hell outta titans in apocalypse (they also inflict instant death and ignore shields)

Titans are minute in comparison when compared to 5km long battleships, 3km long cruisers or even 1km long escorts with weapons designed to kill ships. Even a Firestorm can obliterate a Titan from orbit with it's lance weaponry.

Yes so if a lance = a ship sized lascannon.... what would a ship sized D-cannon do !? pulsars in 40k function almost the same as in gothic , why would a d cannon not ?



I don't mind that either. So how about you play with the Void Stalker Heavy first before you decide Eldar NEEDS, not wants, weapons like those.

[/quote]

Seriously, quite happy with this as a compromise , but as I stated before my intention was to give a bit more 'flavour' but a CWE (5+) stalker variant is good and fluffy enough for me, with the torps it will actually 'BE' a variant.

Regards

M.