Why don't you try it? I already know how ineffective the NC is which is why I take lots of them. Your NC removes ALL the drawbacks. It IS that gamebreaking since you're already using Eldar which is a game breaking race already.
Why would you take something that you know to be ineffective multiple times , 100 x crap = lots of crapness ? if you are freaking out I have to assume that you think NC's are actually very effective otherwise you would not be fussed about the proposed D Lance ? If you have to take multiples to in some way mitigate their ineffectiveness and I can only take one at premium points what is the problem ? what drawbacks does it remove ? it is EXACTLY the same as an NC with a shorter range , yes it ignores shields other than that and one of the hits being an auto crit it is the same , certainly more effective but just as likely to miss ? and undoubtedly more expensive, do you NC's half your speed too ?
And that is why you don't know what you are talking about when you are comparing SM to Eldar. 6+ armor? Against your 4+ multi shot lances? Please.
A str 2 lance is no where near as good as say 6 normal lances infact str 3 is less reliable... IN can spam more and longer range lances than CWE, so I cannot understand why you would whine, I was not comparing SM to Eldar I was just pointing out some reasons why they are not complete rubbish as far as I am aware marines can put quite a few bomb cannons on the table. ok so they are not an ultra competitive list but in fairness marines should be all about the planetary assault and boarding actions , they should really be treated as (yet another) fleet option for the IN
I don't see why CWE should not get the full pulsar. Give it to them They only have limited escort types anyway.
I think everyone agreed that a slight boost to the pulsar is probably in order but no one seems to think that a full pulsar is balanced/the way to go , hence I suggested a compromise , it's not even rules heavy or clunky .
And do you know why the IN can get multiple NC? It's because of their pathetically short range which can't touch your Eldar even without terrain. Even the current NC rules can't touch your Eldar. Do you know that?
Yeah , we have already established that you feel nc's suck but insist on fielding as many as you can in this knowledge. perhaps if you opted for a more balanced fleet ? fielding NC spam should have some kinda downside, wargames should always have a paper to someone's rock, or scissors to someone's paper thats why there is a need to write balanced all comers lists ?
A quick browse through the available IN ships shows me that there are no less than 11 ships available to you with 60cm WB's , pitiful short range ? ..... please (not to mention all the 45cm stuff)
I don't mind you getting the Void Stalker. That's it. I don't want Eldar to get any more cheesier by getting a ship with weapons that further break them. You would take the phoenix at 1500 up. I would take it at 1000 points and up. Heck I would take it at sub 1000 point games.
It wont make them cheesier. The points will be going somewhere you consider cheesy regardless of whether the Phoenix is in or not, except now there are 500 points you can more easily catch and kill (even more so than a stalker), plus your opponent will actually have more firepower/hits/mobility if he simply takes 2 dragonships, under the proposed faq change a squadron of two dragon ships will be able to deliver a str 16 Eldar torpedo salvo ......
Maybe phoenix ships would 'have' to be taken in games of at least 1500 points
Bitter? Yes, I am bitter when I see Eldar players who want to cheese up their faction all the more. Whether I play with multiple NCs or torp heavy, IN can never hope to win over Eldar except on an EXTREMELY lucky day. CWE is less competitive? Maybe it's you the player instead of the fleet? I see a faction with 5+ arm on their cap ships, much better than DE weapons wise and has holofield and MSM protection. And you think other players won't be as bitter if that Phoenix of yours gets approved? Riiiiiight.
I have stated repeatedly that I have no wish to power up the fleet just to give it some degree of diversity and similar 'basic' ship options as EVERY other fleet. I have even asked to make the escorts less powerful than you would have them (with the pulsars you whine about) and that I would pay over the odds in points to be able to field it ?
Don't play such lopsided lists then ?
I want ONE just ONE decent battleship for my fleet that actually fits with the fleet, that is hardly much to ask , you have access to a Bewildering array of battleships to suit any need/build /opponent , I came across an IN battleship with 2 sets of 6 !? launch bays today, I would cut off my left ball to have a ship that could launch half as many craft available to my fleet. The IN list is wonderfully diverse not to mention having the option of reserve admech/marines/inquisition
That NC of yours is one gun which ignores shields and does an auto crit among other things. Really, my suggestion now is go play an IN fleet with none, one or two and NC heavy against Eldar. Then come back here and talk about how balanced the Eldar NC of yours is.
As you have said though, they are no good due to inaccuracy so you take 4 to compensate. I have ONE and it will miss just as much , 4 nova cannons @ 2k is cheesy against any list but Eldar, if your regular opponents feature several different fleets including eldar you should be considering this meta when writing your fleets.
Not a win button? Hahaha! With your NC, I can charge in, shoot my NC against any Necron, IN, Chaos, Ork, Tau or whatever battleship, hell even the Planet Killer then follow up the shot with Pulsar Lances or Eldar WB or Eldar torps. I would NOT be wasting the whole fleet because I would crash that ship into the enemy lines. How can it miss? You already said it was a guess weapon. Then might as well charge into pointblank range where even a half blind player can eyeball the range easily. And you end up with one dead, D-E-A-D battleship. Then afterwards? Why the Phoenix can just move away, avoiding a lot of trouble. Meanwhile the rest of my fleet can crash in also and further punish whatever else my opponent brings. Clearly you have no idea how bad such a ship can be.
I got muddled up with the original NC rules it works exactly the same as an NC not a planet killer or a guess wep , just an NC . if it ignores the shields then anything you follow up with will still hit shields 3-4 hits including a critical is hardly D-E-A-D now is it ? (if you account for the inaccuracy and brace for impact saves its unlikely to do a huge amount), putting it in range of your entire opponents fleets wb's would not be an act of deep intelligence ... was not talking about wasting your fleet but if you were going to just sit the phoenix ship out of usual engagement range and fire the D lance once every other turn (given the aforementioned accuracy gripe) you are basically letting your opponent fight say 1500 ish points of your fleet with 2 k of his, nice one ! I think I see why you struggle against eldar Cheesy NC spam is no doubt lethal against any other fleet , if you had a more balanced/less crutchy list you would be able to play and win against Eldar, you do have the tools available to your fleet ?
I would like limited special weps in the fleet.
You don't need limited special weps because the Eldar already has special weapons in every category.[/quote]
The Thing you have missed really is that they have proportionately less of everything (firepower/hits) pulsars are not as good as just having say 6 lances and they are made of wet paper and are prone to crits, they need this to work like glass hammers to actually BE an eldar fleet. having access to one special weapon in a fleet (of any size) is hardly game breaking, having as many as you can squeeze in might be considered so, but with my proposal it is not spammable or abuseable, just characterful
Best
M.