Craftworld Eldar and why you hate me

[horizon]

10.... grrr... I still need the larger ones, the old Wraithships. I have the old Space Hunters.

[Don Gusto]

I would just like to point out that under the current rules you cannot engage fighters with turrets (thats page 29 the last paragraph).
Technically you couldnt chase bombers either with turrets, they are reactive. It works because bombers are forced to attack on base contact.

[RayB HA]

Don,

It's fine, it covers them attacking each other. It's fair enough that fighters will avoid the escort if not part of a wave.

Cheers,

RayB

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Thanks for the mature,eloquent and well thought out post....... Its not about cheese or even making the fleet more powerful, its about variety and parity with the selections available to other fleets. If you think those weps are broken you have clearly not read those rules properly or ever played against a Necron fleet (for example). I would not care if those phoenix ships were somewhat over-pointed as I feel that something like it is a glaring omission from the fleet.

Regards,

M

A weapon which is an NC but does not have the minimum range limit, ignores shields, does D6 damage under the hole, does d3 damage in the outer template and 1 automatic critical hit. In exchange it needs to be RO'd. In an Eldar fleet where LD values are almost off the charts?

Another weapon which functions the same as a pulsar lance but for every hit results in a critical hit on a 4+? Possible 1-3 criticals which can actually net you 10-12 on the crit table and so further damage?

On top of all the doodads the Eldar already have?

I don't know about you but my understanding of english is fine, thank you. Why do you think I laughed? And your justification is because you can't beat the Necrons? Well, now you know how most other races other than Necron and Chaos feel when going up against Eldar.

Sorry dude but those options DO cheese up the Eldar fleet. Do make it more powerful. Glaring omissions? What omissions? Eldar already has the most efficient weapons out there and you want to give them more? That's balance? Riiiiiiiiiiiiight.

Ray is correct. Take the Void Stalker when the next Update or FAQ comes out that allows the CWE to take the Void Stalker. That's all the battleship Eldar needs.

[Kraken]

Thanks for the mature,eloquent and well thought out post....... Its not about cheese or even making the fleet more powerful, its about variety and parity with the selections available to other fleets. If you think those weps are broken you have clearly not read those rules properly or ever played against a Necron fleet (for example). I would not care if those phoenix ships were somewhat over-pointed as I feel that something like it is a glaring omission from the fleet.

Regards,

M

A weapon which is an NC but does not have the minimum range limit, ignores shields, does D6 damage under the hole, does d3 damage in the outer template and 1 automatic critical hit. In exchange it needs to be RO'd. In an Eldar fleet where LD values are almost off the charts?

Needs to be guess range, so far from a win button, and looses the ability to move in the ordy phase plus you could only ever have ONE of the special weapons in a fleet @ 500 points ? I'm fairly sure 2 dragonships costs less and puts down more hurt for less ?

Another weapon which functions the same as a pulsar lance but for every hit results in a critical hit on a 4+? Possible 1-3 criticals which can actually net you 10-12 on the crit table and so further damage?

How is this weapon much different from bombardment cannons ,given only one ship in the fleet could have it rather than every single ship and at 50 points,  in theory you need to roll 11 or more times on the crit table to guarantee extra damage ?! and again the ship costs loads.

On top of all the doodads the Eldar already have?

hmm you mean , NO battleship NO decent escorts NO shields, very few hits, in terms of the corsairs NO armour, Ghostships ? the list is longer, but you get the idea , it would not really be 'on top of' because in order to have it you will have less of the other stuff, if you were going to write a fleet for pure efficiency I doubt you would take a phoenix ship.

I don't know about you but my understanding of english is fine, thank you. Why do you think I laughed? And your justification is because you can't beat the Necrons? Well, now you know how most other races other than Necron and Chaos feel when going up against Eldar.

At which point did I say I could not beat them, true they are tough on Eldar , !? I was merely drawing your attention to their weapons /special rules etc in comparison, how is the phoenix ship worse than the Necron battleship or a planet killer or a hulk for that matter ?

Sorry dude but those options DO cheese up the Eldar fleet. Do make it more powerful. Glaring omissions? What omissions? Eldar already has the most efficient weapons out there and you want to give them more? That's balance? Riiiiiiiiiiiiight.

Again you miss the point, to put a phoenix ship in an existing fleet would mean dropping at least one dragon ship and a bunch of other stuff (its probably not really playable under 1500, its actually easier to deal with than multiple faster ships , and to fire the weapons that are soo broken It cannot avoid your fleet , or at least its going to have a hard time , its no worse , just different.


Your point: "And your justification is because you can't beat the Necrons"? you justify your 'argument' with the fact you cannot beat the Eldar ?



Ray is correct. Take the Void Stalker when the next Update or FAQ comes out that allows the CWE to take the Void Stalker. That's all the battleship Eldar needs.

The Voidstalker is the CE variant, hence it looks the same and has the same AV as the rest of the corsair fleet a craftworld variant would be somewhat different and judging from the way the CWE cruisers differ from the CE ones its not a giant leap of logic to see that the CWE version if it follows the design precedents would have some more firepower and a 5+ save at the very least .

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Needs to be guess range, so far from a win button, and looses the ability to move in the ordy phase plus you could only ever have ONE of the special weapons in a fleet @ 500 points ? I'm fairly sure 2 dragonships costs less and puts down more hurt for less ?

You do realize there's a reason why the guess range was dropped? Because there's lots of people out there who are very good at eyeballing ranges. Who cares if it's only one? The fact is it's available. Worse it's available on one of the hardest ships to kill.

How is this weapon much different from bombardment cannons ,given only one ship in the fleet could have it rather than every single ship and at 50 points,  in theory you need to roll 11 or more times on the crit table to guarantee extra damage ?! and again the ship costs loads.

Bombardment cannons are the weapons concession given to the SM to make them more competitive. In exchange they lose out on a regular cruiser. See how bad the disadvantage is? Also Bombardment Cannons are WB table dependent. Aside from which the range is only 30 cm. Again comparing the BC to what the Eldar have is a no contest. Eldar will generally laugh at SM and just massacre them with their Pulsar lances.

hmm you mean , NO battleship NO decent escorts NO shields, very few hits, in terms of the corsairs NO armour, Ghostships ? the list is longer, but you get the idea , it would not really be 'on top of' because in order to have it you will have less of the other stuff, if you were going to write a fleet for pure efficiency I doubt you would take a phoenix ship.

Void Stalker. Not available to CWE YET but it looks like you will get it. No decent escorts? Maybe. But they do have decent cruisers. No armor? CWE escorts have the typical CE armor unless they've become 3+ without my noticing. And then you have holofields and that crazy MSM. I would still bat that that escort (I forget the name) gets the regular Pulsar lance instead of a regular lance but that's about it. Do that and you have a fleet which can rival CE already. CWE still has access to all the other doodads of Eldar. You can't deny that. I would most certainly take a Phoenix, if only to put the NC lance. It's that powerful. I don't need no playtest to know that. Why? Because I use the NC extensively.

At which point did I say I could not beat them, true they are tough on Eldar , !? I was merely drawing your attention to their weapons /special rules etc in comparison, how is the phoenix ship worse than the Necron battleship or a planet killer or a hulk for that matter ?

And did you notice that Necrons are limited to 3 capital ships? And out of the 3 capital ships, only the Scythe is really worth while. I wouldn't take the Tombship unless it was a really high points game. Again, you're having a problem with Necrons? Well again, I point out that IN is way marginalized vs Eldar, much more so than Eldar is against Necron (and I even feel that is doubtful). Tell ya what. Let my short ranged IN ignore all the Eldar advantages by getting the speed I need to catch with Eldar and/or ignore holofields even with just my NC then I'll agree to the Phoenix and its NC.

Again you miss the point, to put a phoenix ship in an existing fleet would mean dropping at least one dragon ship and a bunch of other stuff (its probably not really playable under 1500, its actually easier to deal with than multiple faster ships , and to fire the weapons that are soo broken It cannot avoid your fleet , or at least its going to have a hard time , its no worse , just different.

So what? The trade off is good enough. I WOULD take this ship over a Dragonship any day just to have access to either of those two weapons. Even the Planet Killer would quake against the Phoenix and it's Eldar NC. Get the Phoenix into range with the NC. Shoot it up with the NC then follow up with the Pulsars and other weapons at your disposal then run away again to the rear of the PK.

The Voidstalker is the CE variant, hence it looks the same and has the same AV as the rest of the corsair fleet a craftworld variant would be somewhat different and judging from the way the CWE cruisers differ from the CE ones its not a giant leap of logic to see that the CWE version if it follows the design precedents would have some more firepower and a 5+ save at the very least .

So fine, get the 5+ arm. I don't mind. DE already have holofields and 5+ armor so there is a precedent.I designed a 5+ armor DE battleship myself so I don't think it's a problem. But the special weapons of the Phoenix? No way.

[Kraken]

You do realize there's a reason why the guess range was dropped? Because there's lots of people out there who are very good at eyeballing ranges. Who cares if it's only one? The fact is it's available. Worse it's available on one of the hardest ships to kill.

So you are saying they have toned down the accuracy of weapons of this nature , so whats the problem? you can have multiple NC's  I 'might' take one NC equivalent, I really don't think it is that game breaking..

Bombardment cannons are the weapons concession given to the SM to make them more competitive. In exchange they lose out on a regular cruiser. See how bad the disadvantage is? Also Bombardment Cannons are WB table dependent. Aside from which the range is only 30 cm. Again comparing the BC to what the Eldar have is a no contest. Eldar will generally laugh at SM and just massacre them with their Pulsar lances.

Marines have a bunch of other stuff too , like 6+ armour , I was not aware the marine fleet was particularly poor.


Void Stalker. Not available to CWE YET but it looks like you will get it. No decent escorts? Maybe. But they do have decent cruisers. No armor? CWE escorts have the typical CE armor unless they've become 3+ without my noticing. And then you have holofields and that crazy MSM. I would still bat that that escort (I forget the name) gets the regular Pulsar lance instead of a regular lance but that's about it. Do that and you have a fleet which can rival CE already. CWE still has access to all the other doodads of Eldar. You can't deny that. I would most certainly take a Phoenix, if only to put the NC lance. It's that powerful. I don't need no playtest to know that. Why? Because I use the NC extensively.

I did actually specify that it was CE  that had poor armour, well at least we agree on the escort , although I wanted a mini 2 hit max pulsar as a full one would be a little OTT.

Thing is you can have multiple NC's , are you just anti the distortion lance because you use NC alot ? the planet killer has an uber NC ? don't hear you complaining about that.


And did you notice that Necrons are limited to 3 capital ships? And out of the 3 capital ships, only the Scythe is really worth while. I wouldn't take the Tombship unless it was a really high points game. Again, you're having a problem with Necrons? Well again, I point out that IN is way marginalized vs Eldar, much more so than Eldar is against Necron (and I even feel that is doubtful). Tell ya what. Let my short ranged IN ignore all the Eldar advantages by getting the speed I need to catch with Eldar and/or ignore holofields even with just my NC then I'll agree to the Phoenix and its NC.

CWE are limited to 2 usable capital ships and one escort, I would only take a phoenix at 1500 and above to be honest, so same same but different..... in has access to loads of weps over 30 cm range they have a truly massive amount of ships to choose from, IN have a tool for everything and there is great fun trying out different fleet builds , which you cannot really do with CWE . just sounds like you like NC's and are running a fleet/fleets that struggle with Eldar and are somewhat bitter about it. CWE is LESS competitive than CE.



So what? The trade off is good enough. I WOULD take this ship over a Dragonship any day just to have access to either of those two weapons. Even the Planet Killer would quake against the Phoenix and it's Eldar NC. Get the Phoenix into range with the NC. Shoot it up with the NC then follow up with the Pulsars and other weapons at your disposal then run away again to the rear of the PK.

The 'NC' is one gun, it will miss , it just will ,can hardly be relied on as a win button ... and you would be wasting the whole 500 point ship just lurking around out of range, what about the rest of its guns ?



So fine, get the 5+ arm. I don't mind. DE already have holofields and 5+ armor so there is a precedent.I designed a 5+ armor DE battleship myself so I don't think it's a problem. But the special weapons of the Phoenix? No way.

Ahh well we are getting somewhere , at least there is general agreement that CWE need a BB and it should be a stalker variant and 5+ armour makes sense.

I would like limited special weps in the fleet.
[/quote]

[horizon]

CWE have 8 useable capital ships, 9 with the Flame added. Yes, now the weapons are screwed that's why the torps on the Dragonship need to go up and the batteries down.
If the Ghostship got some good rules it'll be 16 variants really.

I can build many variant fleets with the CWE and even more under this FAQ2010 (per proposed changes from Ray Bell).

The Space Marines are indeed a weaker fleet and the Imperial Navy good but needs a good admiral (player).

From what I know admiral d'artagnan uses 1 NC per 500pts. This mostly because the NC rules are not very effective since FAQ2007/latest rulebook.

On the battleship: I would want a battleship but I do not think the fleet needs a battleship to be varied and/or good/effective enough. Small difference I like to state. I want it because I love painting models and the CWE just looks plain cool.

Everyone struggles with Eldar. Mainly because of the rulesystem.

I still advocate a dropping of the msm rules in the Craftworld rules and replacing them with MMS. Since it is pdf only and not printed in the rulebook or armada no one will be 'hurt' with such a change.

[Kraken]

CWE have 8 useable capital ships, 9 with the Flame added. Yes, now the weapons are screwed that's why the torps on the Dragonship need to go up and the batteries down.
If the Ghostship got some good rules it'll be 16 variants really.

Just to add the flame means you have to buy an over priced character , if that were not the case I might agree , I am actually sort of in agreement about the batteries dropping to 14 but the torps going to 8 however I would prefer balancing the lances against the batteries.

16 variants ? really ? you can technically make 4 'variants' with the Dragonship and four with the Wraithship , thats 8. Gostships cannot have launch bays and smoke the Fail-pipe, but if you want to include it then you can build three more 'variants' this way , so we are squeezing for 11 but in all honesty 8 is what you technically have to choose from and I doubt you even use that many, possibly two from each of the non ghost ship 'variants' .

You still actually only have 2 cruisers at the same points really, its not the same as having an actual selection of ships to choose from at different points values with distinct uses. advantages and disadvantages, not to mention a few of the little grey box 'character' ships ?

Ray , as an FAQ type fix , why not just , make the wraithship option reduce the points of the doner ship ? kinda fits with the whole 'not ideal but lets us put up more ships' thing ?



I can build many variant fleets with the CWE and even more under this FAQ2010 (per proposed changes from Ray Bell).

I'm sorry I was not aware we were getting more ships ? I pray for at very least CWE access to a 5+ armour Stalker with a torp option. The proposed change to the Dragonship may mean you play the pulsar variant a bit more but I do not see how you would create 'many more' fleet builds , maybe with a decent points drop for wraith ships then you could certainly play around , I doubt your more 'competitive' fleets will change much.....
 

The Space Marines are indeed a weaker fleet and the Imperial Navy good but needs a good admiral (player).

From what I know admiral d'artagnan uses 1 NC per 500pts. This mostly because the NC rules are not very effective since FAQ2007/latest rulebook.

As you say , they are less effective so what is the problem with a single NC type weapon being available to CE at a premium. Four at 2k is quite alot , makes me feel less bad about maybe one @ any points size.... ?

On the battleship: I would want a battleship but I do not think the fleet needs a battleship to be varied and/or good/effective enough. Small difference I like to state. I want it because I love painting models and the CWE just looks plain cool.

The Battleship is really nothing to do with effectiveness for me , as I said before I would  pay over the odds in points as I feel the fleet is more complete with the option of having one. Its like not having a captain/librarian/chaplain not available in a marine dex. I think a CWE Battleship would be a really cool project to convert and paint . I just have no reason to do it atm as I only paint what I can/will play with.

We are far from the only Eldar players who want one......

Everyone struggles with Eldar. Mainly because of the rulesystem.

If you say so , that may apply to some players.

I still advocate a dropping of the msm rules in the Craftworld rules and replacing them with MMS. Since it is pdf only and not printed in the rulebook or armada no one will be 'hurt' with such a change.

What is the problem with MSM really ? if you take it away they wont be as mobile but also you will have to make them less fragile and possibly give them turrets (bleurgh), which I dislike, I play Eldar I like tricksy and fragile. I play em in 40k for the same reason, as soon as the army ever starts getting AV13-14 and 3+ saves everywhere and less 'glass hammer' like I'll consider dropping 40k, seriously, no other army handles the same or has a design ethic that appeals to me nearly enough to make me put my hand in my pocket over and over again.

With all due respect I like the work and the thought you have put into your MMS rules but its not for me IMO it does not 'feel' right. I know that is an abstract concept but that is something important for me as a gamer both in game and army choice , I did not play 40k for 3rd Ed and most of 4th subsequently.

Andy chambers did a great job with gothic !!

So what is the current set of proposed changes to Eldar as of now ?

Cheers

M.

Edit: Here is a quote from another player on a different forum where this FAQ is being talked about just so Its not just me banging on about the same things.

"There aren't enough variants when some variant choices are uncompetitive, either in performance or cost, and as a result are rarely if ever taken.

Nerfing the competitive choice doesn't solve the problem. It just means the situation reverses. The situation is analogous to the 3rd ed. Eldar Codex for 40K. It had a mix of too good and too bad choices under the false assumption that players would take a mix and thereby achieve "average" performance for cost. What really happened was people gravitated to the good options and completely ignored the bad, resulting in cookie cutter armies. So much for variation. When the next Codex nerfed some options, people then just gravitated to the next best thing. For there to be variety, all options have to be worthwhile. Right now, the CWE ship list doesn't have that because there are hardly any "real" choices to make, since some of the choices are clearly better while some (such as making Ghostships) are clearly worthless."

This chap actually suggested the points drop as a compromise on a 'fix' for Ghostships.

[RayB HA]

Kraken,

The re-jig of the weapon options balances all the options so that there are no 'no-brainer' options. The escorts for CWE are intentionally rubbish for normal ship combat and are only really there to use up extra points and hunt Ordy (if you really want to). This is so the CWE are a cruiser heavy eldar list.

The CE have the problem that the good escorts are slightly too cheap and the cruisers are too expensive, I never win the argument that Nightshades and Hemlocks should cost 45pts (with the Hemlock gaining a WB), and Hellebore and Aconite should be reduced by 10pts.

Ghostships suck and need to be redone: suffer crits on a 6+ instead of 4+, always count as having a BM in contact (right shift for gunnery weapons, -1 ld, -5cm speed), immune to damage from BM's but can't use command rerolls or launch bays. (so only 3 variants)

MSM is broken: This is due to the utter dependance of terrain and scenario. The difference between a win and a loss is usually determined by this, not in the actual game!

Off topic On 40K Eldar: There are so many options for Eldar now, I have an army of jet bikes, warp spiders, shining spears, Warwalkers and Wraith lords. Excluding the Warwalkers everything has a 3+ armour save, and over half my army has MSM (but this isn't as important as in BFG)! Thankfully Eldar miss out on good anti-armour so I do have a weakness.

Cheers,

RayB HA

[horizon]

The CE have the problem that the good escorts are slightly too cheap and the cruisers are too expensive, I never win the argument that Nightshades and Hemlocks should cost 45pts (with the Hemlock gaining a WB), and Hellebore and Aconite should be reduced by 10pts.

Why can't you win that argument? The Nightshade & Hemlock should be 50pts at least. Eldar players who tell otherwise are cheese heads.
The Hellebore should just have a fighter launch bay instead of torps to make it an option.

Ghostships suck and need to be redone: suffer crits on a 6+ instead of 4+, always count as having a BM in contact (right shift for gunnery weapons, -1 ld, -5cm speed), immune to damage from BM's but can't use command rerolls or launch bays. (so only 3 variants)

Gotta ponder this idea.

MSM is broken: This is due to the utter dependance of terrain and scenario. The difference between a win and a loss is usually determined by this, not in the actual game!

And that if you play MSM like you should games tend to be boring in the hands of a good Eldar admiral.

And Kraken, I still, heavily disagree on the variant options (yes 16 was too high as I counted a Ghostship with laucnh bays oops), there are enough available.
However, the Hero will be 100pts, that is nowhere overpriced for Ld10. The Flame is awesome itself.

[Kraken]

Kraken,

The re-jig of the weapon options balances all the options so that there are no 'no-brainer' options. The escorts for CWE are intentionally rubbish for normal ship combat and are only really there to use up extra points and hunt Ordy (if you really want to). This is so the CWE are a cruiser heavy eldar list.

My only worry with said re-jig is that the good load outs will be nerfed rather than improving the rarely chosen option , these tweaks as i understood it were not about making the ships overall worse for the same points ?

The CE have the problem that the good escorts are slightly too cheap and the cruisers are too expensive, I never win the argument that Nightshades and Hemlocks should cost 45pts (with the Hemlock gaining a WB), and Hellebore and Aconite should be reduced by 10pts.

Interesting , I could see that working .....

Ghostships suck and need to be redone: suffer crits on a 6+ instead of 4+, always count as having a BM in contact (right shift for gunnery weapons, -1 ld, -5cm speed), immune to damage from BM's but can't use command rerolls or launch bays. (so only 3 variants)

Is that a list of current the negatives !? I looked at the rules once and have never used them since , they really do suck to an epic degree? if that is your list of proposed changes why on earth would anyone use them ?


Off topic On 40K Eldar: There are so many options for Eldar now, I have an army of jet bikes, warp spiders, shining spears, Warwalkers and Wraith lords. Excluding the Warwalkers everything has a 3+ armour save, and over half my army has MSM (but this isn't as important as in BFG)! Thankfully Eldar miss out on good anti-armour so I do have a weakness.

I'm happy with my eldar atm , I do feel they have fallen behind the creep and the viable builds shrink with each successive codex release , but half the fun of playing them for me now is beating shiny new lists with my 'tired' one in fact my current list EATS Blood angels. There are however a ream of changes I would make/expect in the next book. as for anti armour ,I'm really not struggling with that in my list atm. but they are certainly not the masters of energy weps the book would have you believe they are , the star cannon and bright lance are a complete joke for their points...

MSM is broken: This is due to the utter dependance of terrain and scenario. The difference between a win and a loss is usually determined by this, not in the actual game!

And that if you play MSM like you should games tend to be boring in the hands of a good Eldar admiral.

Thats always been the way with Eldar ,very good in the hands of a skilled player but no good to a novice or someone who cannot engage with their style of play they should also be very fragile and subsequently unforgiving of mistakes (or even sometimes bad luck with the dice at the wrong time)


And Kraken, I still, heavily disagree on the variant options (yes 16 was too high as I counted a Ghostship with laucnh bays oops), there are enough available.
However, the Hero will be 100pts, that is nowhere overpriced for Ld10. The Flame is awesome itself.

The Hero IS currently a gajillion points , so no flame for me ...  I don't see them as true variants they are really only two ships with a downgrade option (ghostship) if you claim there are loads of variants of ONE ship, but if everyone only actually use the same 2 variants I would argue that the list does truly lack diversity, a tactical squad is still a tactical squad regardless of what special weapon you opt for........


I'm not the only one who feels the CWE lack variation (see previous inserted quote) , maybe with a battleship another escort and possibly another cruiser the list could be considered 'complete'

Ray, when will you be submitting for the FaQ ? and will you post a complete final list of the proposed changes before it 'goes' ?

Thankee

M.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

So you are saying they have toned down the accuracy of weapons of this nature , so whats the problem? you can have multiple NC's  I 'might' take one NC equivalent, I really don't think it is that game breaking..

Why don't you try it? I already know how ineffective the NC is which is why I take lots of them. Your NC removes ALL the drawbacks. It IS that gamebreaking since you're already using Eldar which is a game breaking race already.

Marines have a bunch of other stuff too , like 6+ armour , I was not aware the marine fleet was particularly poor.

And that is why you don't know what you are talking about when you are comparing SM to Eldar. 6+ armor? Against your 4+ multi shot lances? Please.

I did actually specify that it was CE  that had poor armour, well at least we agree on the escort , although I wanted a mini 2 hit max pulsar as a full one would be a little OTT.

I don't see why CWE should not get the full pulsar. Give it to them They only have limited escort types anyway.

Thing is you can have multiple NC's , are you just anti the distortion lance because you use NC alot ? the planet killer has an uber NC ? don't hear you complaining about that.

And do you know why the IN can get multiple NC? It's because of their pathetically short range which can't touch your Eldar even without terrain. Even the current NC rules can't touch your Eldar. Do you know that?

CWE are limited to 2 usable capital ships and one escort, I would only take a phoenix at 1500 and above to be honest, so same same but different..... in has access to loads of weps over 30 cm range they have a truly massive amount of ships to choose from, IN have a tool for everything and there is great fun trying out different fleet builds , which you cannot really do with CWE . just sounds like you like NC's and are running a fleet/fleets that struggle with Eldar and are somewhat bitter about it. CWE is LESS competitive than CE.

I don't mind you getting the Void Stalker. That's it. I don't want Eldar to get any more cheesier by getting a ship with weapons that further break them. You would take the phoenix at 1500 up. I would take it at 1000 points and up. Heck I would take it at sub 1000 point games.

Bitter? Yes, I am bitter when I see Eldar players who want to cheese up their faction all the more. Whether I play with multiple NCs or torp heavy, IN can never hope to win over Eldar except on an EXTREMELY lucky day. CWE is less competitive? Maybe it's you the player instead of the fleet? I see a faction with 5+ arm on their cap ships, much better than DE weapons wise and has holofield and MSM protection. And you think other players won't be as bitter if that Phoenix of yours gets approved? Riiiiiight.

The 'NC' is one gun, it will miss , it just will ,can hardly be relied on as a win button ... and you would be wasting the whole 500 point ship just lurking around out of range, what about the rest of its guns ?

That NC of yours is one gun which ignores shields and does an auto crit among other things. Really, my suggestion now is go play an IN fleet with none, one or two and NC heavy against Eldar. Then come back here and talk about how balanced the Eldar NC of yours is.

Not a win button? Hahaha! With your NC, I can charge in, shoot my NC against any Necron, IN, Chaos, Ork, Tau or whatever battleship, hell even the Planet Killer then follow up the shot with Pulsar Lances or Eldar WB or Eldar torps. I would NOT be wasting the whole fleet because I would crash that ship into the enemy lines. How can it miss? You already said it was a guess weapon. Then might as well charge into pointblank range where even a half blind player can eyeball the range easily. And you end up with one dead, D-E-A-D battleship. Then afterwards? Why the Phoenix can just move away, avoiding a lot of trouble. Meanwhile the rest of my fleet can crash in also and further punish whatever else my opponent brings. Clearly you have no idea how bad such a ship can be.

Ahh well we are getting somewhere , at least there is general agreement that CWE need a BB and it should be a stalker variant and 5+ armour makes sense.

I would like limited special weps in the fleet.

You don't need limited special weps because the Eldar already has special weapons in every category.

[Kraken]

Why don't you try it? I already know how ineffective the NC is which is why I take lots of them. Your NC removes ALL the drawbacks. It IS that gamebreaking since you're already using Eldar which is a game breaking race already.

Why would you take something that you know to be ineffective multiple times , 100 x crap = lots of crapness ? if you are freaking out I have to assume that you think NC's are actually very effective otherwise you would not be fussed about the proposed D Lance ? If you have to take multiples to in some way mitigate their ineffectiveness and I can only take one at premium points what is the problem ? what drawbacks does it remove ? it is EXACTLY the same as an NC with a shorter range , yes it ignores shields other than that and one of the hits being an auto crit it is the same , certainly more effective but just as likely to miss ? and undoubtedly more expensive, do you NC's half your speed too ?

And that is why you don't know what you are talking about when you are comparing SM to Eldar. 6+ armor? Against your 4+ multi shot lances? Please.

A str 2 lance is no where near as good as say 6 normal lances infact str 3 is less reliable... IN can spam more and longer range lances than CWE, so I cannot understand why you would whine, I was not comparing SM to Eldar I was just pointing out some reasons why they are not complete rubbish as far as I am aware marines can put quite a few bomb cannons on the table. ok so they are not an ultra competitive list but in fairness marines should be all about the planetary assault and boarding actions , they should really be treated as (yet another) fleet option for the IN

I don't see why CWE should not get the full pulsar. Give it to them They only have limited escort types anyway.

I think everyone agreed that a slight boost to the pulsar is probably in order but no one seems to think that a full pulsar is balanced/the way to go , hence I suggested a compromise , it's not even rules heavy or clunky .

And do you know why the IN can get multiple NC? It's because of their pathetically short range which can't touch your Eldar even without terrain. Even the current NC rules can't touch your Eldar. Do you know that?

Yeah , we have already established that you feel nc's suck but insist on fielding as many as you can in this knowledge. perhaps if you opted for a more balanced fleet ? fielding  NC spam should have some kinda downside, wargames should always have a paper to someone's rock, or scissors to someone's paper thats why there is a need to write balanced all comers lists ?

 A quick browse through the available IN ships shows me that there are no less than 11 ships available to you with 60cm WB's , pitiful short range ? ..... please (not to mention all the 45cm stuff)


I don't mind you getting the Void Stalker. That's it. I don't want Eldar to get any more cheesier by getting a ship with weapons that further break them. You would take the phoenix at 1500 up. I would take it at 1000 points and up. Heck I would take it at sub 1000 point games.

It wont make them cheesier. The points will be going somewhere you consider cheesy regardless of whether the Phoenix is in or not, except now there are 500 points you can more easily catch and kill (even more so than a stalker), plus your opponent will actually have more firepower/hits/mobility if he simply takes 2 dragonships, under the proposed faq change a squadron of two dragon ships will be able to deliver a str 16 Eldar torpedo salvo ......

Maybe phoenix ships would 'have' to be taken in games of at least 1500 points

Bitter? Yes, I am bitter when I see Eldar players who want to cheese up their faction all the more. Whether I play with multiple NCs or torp heavy, IN can never hope to win over Eldar except on an EXTREMELY lucky day. CWE is less competitive? Maybe it's you the player instead of the fleet? I see a faction with 5+ arm on their cap ships, much better than DE weapons wise and has holofield and MSM protection. And you think other players won't be as bitter if that Phoenix of yours gets approved? Riiiiiight.

I have stated repeatedly that I have no wish to power up the fleet just to give it some degree of diversity and similar 'basic' ship options as EVERY other fleet. I have even asked to make the escorts less powerful than you would have them (with the pulsars you whine about) and that I would pay over the odds in points to be able to field it ?

Don't play such lopsided lists then ?

 I want ONE just ONE decent battleship for my fleet that actually fits with the fleet, that is hardly much to ask , you have access to a Bewildering array of battleships to suit any need/build /opponent , I came across an IN battleship with 2 sets of 6 !? launch bays today, I would cut off my left ball to have a ship that could launch half as many craft available to my fleet. The IN list is wonderfully diverse not to mention having the option of reserve admech/marines/inquisition


That NC of yours is one gun which ignores shields and does an auto crit among other things. Really, my suggestion now is go play an IN fleet with none, one or two and NC heavy against Eldar. Then come back here and talk about how balanced the Eldar NC of yours is.

As you have said though, they are no good due to inaccuracy so you take 4 to compensate. I have ONE and it will miss just as much , 4 nova cannons @ 2k is cheesy against any list but Eldar,  if your regular opponents feature several different fleets including eldar you should be considering this meta when writing your fleets.

Not a win button? Hahaha! With your NC, I can charge in, shoot my NC against any Necron, IN, Chaos, Ork, Tau or whatever battleship, hell even the Planet Killer then follow up the shot with Pulsar Lances or Eldar WB or Eldar torps. I would NOT be wasting the whole fleet because I would crash that ship into the enemy lines. How can it miss? You already said it was a guess weapon. Then might as well charge into pointblank range where even a half blind player can eyeball the range easily. And you end up with one dead, D-E-A-D battleship. Then afterwards? Why the Phoenix can just move away, avoiding a lot of trouble. Meanwhile the rest of my fleet can crash in also and further punish whatever else my opponent brings. Clearly you have no idea how bad such a ship can be.

I got muddled up with the original NC rules it works exactly the same as an NC not a planet killer or a guess wep , just an NC . if it ignores the shields then anything you follow up with will still hit shields 3-4 hits including a critical is hardly D-E-A-D now is it ? (if you account for the inaccuracy and brace for impact saves its unlikely to do a huge amount), putting it in range of your entire opponents fleets wb's would not be an act of deep intelligence ... was not talking about wasting your fleet but if you were going to just sit the phoenix ship out of usual engagement range and fire the D lance once every other turn (given the aforementioned accuracy gripe) you are basically letting your opponent fight say 1500 ish points of your fleet with 2 k of his, nice one ! I think I see why you struggle against eldar Cheesy NC spam is no doubt lethal against any other fleet , if you had a more balanced/less crutchy list you would be able to play and win against Eldar, you do have the tools available to your fleet ?

I would like limited special weps in the fleet.

You don't need limited special weps because the Eldar already has special weapons in every category.[/quote]

The Thing you have missed really is that they have proportionately less of everything (firepower/hits) pulsars are not as good as just having say 6 lances and they are made of wet paper and are prone to crits, they need this to work like glass hammers to actually BE an eldar fleet.  having access to one special weapon in a fleet (of any size) is hardly game breaking, having as many as you can squeeze in might be considered so, but with my proposal it is not spammable or abuseable, just characterful

Best

M.

[horizon]

Huh, there is no such thing as an official Imperial Battleship with two sets of six launch bays.

To add: 4 Eldar launch bays are as good as 6-8 normal bays. With the fact that both Wraithships & Dragonships have ordnance an opponent will see himself many times on the defensive and can not spend a lot of time hunting Eldar with bombers.

They do not have less weaponry. 8 Eldar batteries (always count as closing) equals 16 (!) normal batteries when going against an abeam capital ship. I mean... that is a Wraithship with 8 batteries for 160pts operating on battleship levels.
What is less? Yeah, 8 is less then 16... but...

A Dragonship comparision goes off the chart (gunnery table).

2 Pulsars is indeed not as good as 6 lances, but which ship has 6 lances for 160pts? The Gothic has 4 at 180pts.

Yes, their resilience is less but their speed is good and the second m (msM) the best defence in the game.


4 Nova Cannon in 2000pts is hardly cheese I think.

An untailored Imperial Navy fleet will have a rough day against any Eldar fleet.

And I hate tailoring.