Craftworld Eldar and why you hate me

[horizon]

Are you suggesting that the launch bay option on the Wraithship is redundant?

[BlueDagger]

It's just not as good as the torpedoes to most people, but the LAST things we are suggesting is another repeat of the Dragonship ship "fix".

[horizon]

The Dragonship needs a 'fix'.

The wraithship launch bay option is ideal as the 'odd' option (3 Wraithships & 1 Dragonship within 750pts or such).

[Kraken]

Right , I have actually signed up just to comment on this thread, Horizon commented on a discussion I am Involved in on another forum.

Played Gothic when it first came out Eldar , been off for a couple of years but just picked up the fleet again recently for a campaign at my club. yay !!

I had some issues with the Craftworld Eldar fleet before I came here.

I was just a bit sick of cruisers cruisers cruisers for Eldar , even the flame of Asuryan for some reason they could not bring themselves to make into a decent flagship Battleship class , Craftworlds have the resources and some could argue more need for larger capital ships, so why do corsairs get the voidstalker when there is not one single 'battleship' for the Eldar fleet , As far as I am aware the imperials have quite a number to choose from and everyone else has at least one.

To top it all of in order to take the Flame you have to pay an insane amount of points for a character in order to have it, making it rather underwhelming for its cost ... make it a proper battleship please or at least make it good for its points !!! or give us a 'vanilla' battleship with viable options to make interesting variants (like everyone else)

One of the guys on the thread I mentioned has put forward some really good rules and background for 'Phoenix' Battleships , I'm sure were someone to   check its balance  and put it in a tasty pdf (Hell I'll convert the model !!) GW would more than likely put it in the fleet .I would link the word documents here but I cannot figure this forum out would be happy to get them up for consideration.

Shall I just paste it into a post,would be interested to hear peoples thoughts  ?

The fleet is quite low on ships and kinda feels like an incomplete rushed hatchet job without a proper battleship and some more escort veriety and maybe some pre fall fun toys so that the Eldar have something in the same vein as the nova cannon etc , would just lend the fleet more depth/character I feel, and might result in more varied fleets popping up alongside some other suggestions being taken on board.

So my 2p on the current issues being discussed here:

Shadowhunters, No turrets please , just no , if it got put on I imagine I would avoid buying /using them any more as they would feel wrong , infact If the proposed nerfs to the dragonship happen too I would just Dump the list  entirely and use my craftworld models with the Corsairs list......

I think as they are the ONLY escort it would not kill to give them an actual pulsar without lock on they seem to average about 3-4 hits and with lock on its about 6-7 assuming the squadron is at full strength.

However as a compromise why not give them: shadowhunter pulsars = pulsars that can only do max 2 hits ?  and NO turrets  keep the 4+ ordy thing , that is a nice little characterful rule.

It makes them a little more flexible as you now have to choose going after ordy or going after ships or maybe buying several squads to do either where needed *gasp*

Flame:If its going to be the only 'big' ship Eldar get make it good , moving the pulsars to the prow or keel make sense so greenlight that for me
definitely should come with assault boats given Yriels penchant for assaulting things , I doubt he got so bad A** just sitting on a bridge sippping xenofruit wine.....

Personally I would like to see it with the same amount of hits as a stalker (maybe one less) and a set of torps , I expect to get flames for that but its just how I see/would like to see Yriels ship , considering he is possibly THE best Eldar Captain I don't see it as too much of a stretch .

Hero is overpriced and coupled with my other issues with the Flame makes them both a pretty unattractive prospect , Currently feel more inclined to go with the dragonship spam...

Ghostships:= fail

Dragonship:: There seems to be some debate about this ship , Its not OP so you cannot nerf any of it , the only option is to make some of the other choices more attractive : I don't think 4 pulsars is overkill ,it already exists on another ship (with longer range) however if you just cant see the sense in that, why not consider making the pulsars 45cms ? suddenly more attractive and already in existence on another Eldar ship (at str 4) I would certainly have trouble choosing between it and the EWB's ......torps and bays seem fine to me , I would love a str 8 Eldar torp on something but I feel that is battleship territory.


I'll 'rant off' now , seems I have written more than I intended , apologies.

M.

[RayB HA]

Hi M (Kraken),

Welcome to the Forum.


Shadow Hunters with turrets: How do they feel wrong? The turret strength reps them getting in close and dog fighting with Ordy. I know this is an unpopular idea but people mostly seem to hate that it's the only eldar ship with turrets or that its just too rubbish.

Shadow Hunters Guns: This should be one of the weakest escorts out there, I think a normal Lance is about equal to 3EWB's. Any more would be too much for such a small escort.

BB's: The Voidstalker should be in the CWE List!(Not happening in the FAQ though, sorry) Excluding the character the Flame is nice for its points (you'll have to get a character anyway), and being a cruiser it can be squadroned with chaff wraithships. Range is a big thing with MSM, 45cm range Pulsars should be limited to BB's.

Ghostships: Yeah, they need too much work to be corrected in an FAQ.

Dragonships: You should compare the Dragonships to the Eclipse, Shadow and Wraithships. In that respect 4 Pulsars and 4 Lb's is too much!!! The Dragonship is more like a Battle Cruiser than a Grand Cruiser!   

Thanks for your input,

RayB HA

[Kraken]

Hi M (Kraken),

Welcome to the Forum.

Thanks , good to be aboard .


Shadow Hunters with turrets: How do they feel wrong? The turret strength reps them getting in close and dog fighting with Ordy. I know this is an unpopular idea but people mostly seem to hate that it's the only eldar ship with turrets or that its just too rubbish.

Is it not enough that the majority of eldar players just don't want turrets on it ? It's difficult to put in to words but no turrets is a feature of the eldar fleet , if you can find a way around it then ok , I still think a two hit lance would not be terrible statistically it only puts three ships upto an average of 2 ish hits rather than 1.5  and with lock on its going to be 4 ish , not terribly OP is it ?

Shadow Hunters Guns: This should be one of the weakest escorts out there, I think a normal Lance is about equal to 3EWB's. Any more would be too much for such a small escort.

Why should it be the weakest ?, its currently the only Escort the fleet has so why should it be rubbish , logic dictates it would be reasonably good or they would have need of variants ?

BB's: The Voidstalker should be in the CWE List!(Not happening in the FAQ though, sorry) Excluding the character the Flame is nice for its points (you'll have to get a character anyway), and being a cruiser it can be squadroned with chaff wraithships. Range is a big thing with MSM, 45cm range Pulsars should be limited to BB's.

BB's ? sorry you have lost me ? I assume you mean battleship ? why would a dragonship not utilise 45 CM lances ? the corsairs must have got them from somewhere ? the Flame is not so bad I suppose I was just disappointed to have yet another cruiser for the list/s

Ghostships: Yeah, they need too much work to be corrected in an FAQ.

Dragonships: You should compare the Dragonships to the Eclipse, Shadow and Wraithships. In that respect 4 Pulsars and 4 Lb's is too much!!! The Dragonship is more like a Battle Cruiser than a Grand Cruiser!

The Dragon ship is fine as I and others have said,and should not be compared to the corsair equivalents as they are different fleets(one has a battleship and good escorts the other does not) in its context the Dragon is fine, the weapons options just need internal balancing, 4 pulsars is possibly too much, so why not give them the extra pulsar range ?, it is the ideal compromise here. if there was a battleship class for the fleet a tiny nerf to the EWB's maybe 14 would be acceptable, but its the best ship CWE have please don't make it worse. I nearly used the corsair rules for my craftworld fleet as it is, we don't have emperor battleships and nova cannons and massive carriers blah blah blah if it's going to be a cruiser centric list then they damn well should be excellent cruisers !!

Thanks for your input,

RayB HA

While we are here I'l pop up the rules I mentioned , what do you think ,I for one am desperate for a battleship class for CWE







Could this be put before High command ? I really feel it (or something in this vein) will help 'finish' the fleet and add to the game at large.

M.

[RayB HA]

Kraken,

Shadow Hunters Turrets: Because others don’t like it isn’t a constructive reason. Sharing their opinion is however. They aren’t literally turrets though, they just share the rules. This could be made as a ‘note’ rather than a turret strength so as not to tarnish the ships stats.

Shadow Hunters Guns: Shadow hunters are the smallest and lightest Eldar escorts, that’s why they get weak armaments, it’s that simple.
As to the logic of having a good escort because they only have one escort class: well CWE are a different extreme of the elder fleet so weaker escorts and heavier cruisers, to force you to have a cruiser fleet.

BBs (Battleships): The only Eldar BB is a Voidstalker (with possible variants). The Voidstalker in its background is actually a CWE ship! Corsairs shouldn’t get it, unless they have a hero. This is a topic for after the FAQ though. You can argue the weak armour into its stats as a CWE BB as it would otherwise he too heavy to have Eldar manoeuvrability.
The Flame (and possible variants) is just a cruiser, a nice addition to be sure but not a BB replacement.

Dragonships: You have to compare the Dragonship to all the other Eldar cruisers as they are the closest ships in the game and background. +1 pulsar and 5+ armour over the Eclipse is plenty generous. Extra range is not going to happen while Eldar are still MSM! It’s only balanced with the Voidstalker as it’s rare, vulnerable and expensive.

Phoenixship: It’s just a really heavy Voidstalker. I’m not a fan as I see Voidstalkers as the largest you can get without reverting to Blackstone style Eldar ships. But it is slow so that makes it at least somewhat balanced.
Basic problems I have are:
Range, all weapons should be at 45cm!
No Dorsals! Just Prow and Keel for Eldar.
4 Lb’s instead of 5. Why 5 anyway?
No Phantom Lances, leave them for the DE.
Special weapons should only be on ‘uncustomisable’ character ships.

Why not use the Voidstalkers stats as a template? 5+ armour with -5cm speed, but with weapon options similar in upgrade from the Eclipse to Dragonship.
So 2 options of 4 Pulsars LF/FR or 16WB’s LFR, about equivalent at 45cm range.
And 4Lb’s or 8 Torps.

Now this just seems too much to me and very similar to the stats presented. 8 Pulsars/32EWB’s and 8 Torps/4Lb’s is super scary! If I were to point it using the Voidstalker as the closest comparison, it would be a little under 500pts. Once again very similar to the stats presented.

This would be a cool House Rule ship but way too abuseble in normal games. CWE should have a choice of 2 Voistalker variants IMO, one with 4 Lb’s and the other with 8 Torps. Nothing greater than that.

Cheers,

RayB HA    

[Kraken]

Hi Ray

This is not actually my rules , just some that were shown to me and struck me as the sort of thing I would love to have at the head of a CWE fleet, given that as you say the Void stalker is a stripped down Corsiar version of the CWE one it seems a bit stupid that it is absent in the more 'capital ship centric' list.

Kraken,

Shadow Hunters Turrets: Because others don’t like it isn’t a constructive reason. Sharing their opinion is however. They aren’t literally turrets though, they just share the rules. This could be made as a ‘note’ rather than a turret strength so as not to tarnish the ships stats.

I think it can be safely surmised that turrets are unpopular choice, what is wrong with the 4+ to hit ordy ? if the pulsar is not to be touched then that is the only remaining 'issue'.

Shadow Hunters Guns: Shadow hunters are the smallest and lightest Eldar escorts, that’s why they get weak armaments, it’s that simple.
As to the logic of having a good escort because they only have one escort class: well CWE are a different extreme of the elder fleet so weaker escorts and heavier cruisers, to force you to have a cruiser fleet.

Ok fine, poop escorts can be order of the day in the CWE list. So why (I do hate to go on) do they get poop escorts AND no battleship, its not like the cruisers are so earth shatteringly effective that the lack of escorts/battleship is really justified....

BBs (Battleships): The only Eldar BB is a Voidstalker (with possible variants). The Voidstalker in its background is actually a CWE ship! Corsairs shouldn’t get it, unless they have a hero. This is a topic for after the FAQ though. You can argue the weak armour into its stats as a CWE BB as it would otherwise he too heavy to have Eldar manoeuvrability.

Or the Corsairs stripped it down for extra speed so it would work better with their escort heavy fleet and hit-and-run tactics , makes perfect sense to me.

The Flame (and possible variants) is just a cruiser, a nice addition to be sure but not a BB replacement.

No it's not (sadly)

Dragonships: You have to compare the Dragonship to all the other Eldar cruisers as they are the closest ships in the game and background. +1 pulsar and 5+ armour over the Eclipse is plenty generous. Extra range is not going to happen while Eldar are still MSM! It’s only balanced with the Voidstalker as it’s rare, vulnerable and expensive.

Not so generous when you consider that the corsair escorts are really very good and the CWE are not. Directly comparing the ships serves no purpose really as they have to be considered in context as a part of the fleet they are in. The 'boost' to the cruisers are more than compensated for by being able to have a Voidstalker (45cm range !!) and excellent escorts some of which can carry full pulsars etc !!

Phoenixship: It’s just a really heavy Voidstalker. I’m not a fan as I see Voidstalkers as the largest you can get without reverting to Blackstone style Eldar ships. But it is slow so that makes it at least somewhat balanced.

I figured it was the non stripped down version of the VS , so heavier armour and slightly heavier load out.

Basic problems I have are:
Range, all weapons should be at 45cm!     interesting ...why ? helps to balance out the ship whilst separating it from the way the Corsairs use it ...

No Dorsals! Just Prow and Keel for Eldar.   Good point, Just an easily corrected oversight then ?

4 Lb’s instead of 5. Why 5 anyway?  I imagine because 8 torps is better than 4 LB's and 5 then becomes a valid 'choice' rather than a redundant load out

No Phantom Lances, leave them for the DE.    I think he meant for them to be the same as the 'phantom lance's from the poop escort, sorry,shadowhunters....

Special weapons should only be on ‘uncustomisable’ character ships.

I particularly liked these, adds a nice bit of flavor and variety to the fleet rather than just more pulsar,torps,EWB's and LB's. It more or less is a character ship , in order to have one , and you can only ever have one (special wep)  in the fleet it has to be the flagship, both weps are pretty cool without being broken, at least I cannot work out how you would break them.

Why not use the Voidstalkers stats as a template? 5+ armour with -5cm speed, but with weapon options similar in upgrade from the Eclipse to Dragonship.

So 2 options of 4 Pulsars LF/FR or 16WB’s LFR, about equivalent at 45cm range.
And 4Lb’s or 8 Torps.

Now this just seems too much to me and very similar to the stats presented. 8 Pulsars/32EWB’s and 8 Torps/4Lb’s is super scary! If I were to point it using the Voidstalker as the closest comparison, it would be a little under 500pts. Once again very similar to the stats presented.

This would be a cool House Rule ship but way too abuseble in normal games. CWE should have a choice of 2 Voistalker variants IMO, one with 4 Lb’s and the other with 8 Torps. Nothing greater than that.

I could pretty much agree with that as long as it was 5+ armour, slower and had something like those special weps as 'character ship' upgrades

RayB HA    

So How about:

450 pts





To be honest I prefer this as it is more balanced.

Cheers,

M.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

WAHAHAHAHAHA! Distortion Lance? WAHAHAHAHAHA! Pulsar Cannon? Not much worse. WAHAHAHAHAHA!

Seriously, Eldar do NOT need anything more which cheeses them up all the more.

[RayB HA]

Kraken,

Shadowhunters Turrets: The reason why shadowhunters are effective at all against Ordy is because of their manoeuvrability not their fine tuned sensors!
****Another option is that BM’s are not placed on holofields saves of 4 or more. (Just checked my written notes of 2007) This reps them dodging shots or killing (or half killing) ordy. In addition to this it should have a speed boost to 20/25/30cm.

Comparisons: You do have to take the whole fleet into consideration for balance. But I’m just talking about stat evolution and comparison, in this case you have to use the closest thing: the other cruisers. For fleet balance, Dragonships can chuck out the same firepower (with my changes) as a squadron of CE escorts.
CWE are fine with the 2 Cruiser sizes with my changes: Dragonships WB’s reduced by 2, Torps increased by 2.     

Eldar Battleships: They should have 45cm range especially if they are slower. If they don’t have 45cm what’s the point in having them over a squadron of cruisers, it’s not as if they have better defences.

I don’t see the Voidstalker as a toned down CWE BB, it’s just a normal CWE BB.

Your BB is fine for HR games but it is too weird with its special weapons and too strong for stranger games.

Cheers,

RayB HA

[Kraken]

WAHAHAHAHAHA! Distortion Lance? WAHAHAHAHAHA! Pulsar Cannon? Not much worse. WAHAHAHAHAHA!

Seriously, Eldar do NOT need anything more which cheeses them up all the more.

Thanks for the mature,eloquent and well thought out post....... Its not about cheese or even making the fleet more powerful, its about variety and parity with the selections available to other fleets. If you think those weps are broken you have clearly not read those rules properly or ever played against a Necron fleet (for example). I would not care if those phoenix ships were somewhat over-pointed as I feel that something like it is a glaring omission from the fleet. [/quote]

Kraken,

Shadowhunters Turrets: The reason why shadowhunters are effective at all against Ordy is because of their manoeuvrability not their fine tuned sensors!

****Another option is that BM’s are not placed on holofields saves of 4 or more. (Just checked my written notes of 2007) This reps them dodging shots or killing (or half killing) ordy. In addition to this it should have a speed boost to 20/25/30cm.

Maybe just leave it alone, not sure you will ever reach an 'improvement' we may as well just get on with it as it is.....

Comparisons: You do have to take the whole fleet into consideration for balance. But I’m just talking about stat evolution and comparison, in this case you have to use the closest thing: the other cruisers. For fleet balance, Dragonships can chuck out the same firepower (with my changes) as a squadron of CE escorts.
CWE are fine with the 2 Cruiser sizes with my changes: Dragonships WB’s reduced by 2, Torps increased by 2.

Looking at it that way the extra torps would be nice , less than 14 for WB's would not be a good thing ,I like pulsars always took em anyways.    

Eldar Battleships: They should have 45cm range especially if they are slower. If they don’t have 45cm what’s the point in having them over a squadron of cruisers, it’s not as if they have better defenses.

Fair point , so I took that into account when presenting my own prototype phoenix ship.

I don’t see the Voidstalker as a toned down CWE BB, it’s just a normal CWE BB.

I did not say toned down , just to be clear it has been re purposed by the CE, not weaker per say Just more suitable to their needs/logistics and fighting style.

Your BB is fine for HR games but it is too weird with its special weapons and too strong for stranger games.

There are crazier ships in GW print ?! In fact they are pretty much based on existing rules ? this is just as you said , a Heavy fit Voidstalker which will cost 500 points if you want it to be 'weird', meh I'll prob make up a shiny pdf and model of it for use in a narrative scenario in our Gothic campaign , I suppose if my regular opponents will let me use it once in a while 'official' will mean squat.

Though I maintain and agree with you that a CWE Stalker variant should be available and that CE should have to go about getting their variant the same way CWE Eldar have to get the Flame.

[/color][/quote]

Regards,

M

[horizon]

Ray,
by now you should have come to the conclusion we do not want turrets (under msm) on Eldar. And that most feel the only change needed to the Shadowhunter is a better lance (DE variant).
Better speed, okay, not needed.
And you can call the 4+ to hit ordnance an abstraction of good movement into the shooting rules.

Though I will never ever use the Void Stalker model in my CWE fleet. Never.

I have to build my own battleship and... Wyrm Battleship from MMS.

[RayB HA]

Roy,

What's wrong with the Voidstalker model? It looks too much like the Corsair ships? You could always file off some of the detail 

Shadowhunters Turrets: No one has actually stated a reason beyond no other Eldar ship has turrets to make me think it's a bad idea.
The BMless holofield save is a special rule that covers the same theme but isn't nearly as effective.

Shooting ordy on a 4+ is completely unrelated to its background, it should be removed!

The Shadowhunter should have some base contact ordy rule (turrets or a BMless save) or no ordy rule at all!

The Shadowhunter should also have a -1 boarding modifier like the Hemlock.

Cheers,

RayB

[horizon]

Yeah, the VS is too much Corsair.

You know what would be cool? If the CWE got rules for the old Spacefleet models, these fit right in.

[RayB HA]

Yeah but you can't get them anymore. I think my brother has about 10 or so, he uses them as Wraithships or Auroras. But with 8 cruiser variants not including the Flame and its possible variants I think CWE have enough options.

Cheers,

RayB