BFG FAQ 2010 General Rules Questions

[russ_c]

I have a question in regards to BFI. On 23 page or rulebook it says that a ship may not attempt any special order in it’s next tern. Does that mean that if I fly into ordnance during my turn and go BFI, I will still be braced during opponents and my next turn as well?

Yes.

[Don]

Yes.

wich I suggest to change. You see, in this case placing  an ordnance markers in front of the ship  so that they cannot be outmaneuvered even in case of 'burn retros' (full stop of course helps but ship will become a defence next turn and you need to counter enemy markers in an ordnance phase anyway) is extremly advantageous. In fact I will place my markers only in this way. If  my opponent would brace - welcome to two turns of halved firepower. If he will burn retros he is still halved for a turn, count as defence on my turn, and still have to  deal with my ordnance. If he have a carriers at working condition and use their potential on my markers while forced to do 'burn retros' -  I'm happy.

I suggest that this unfair advantage should be removed. For example: "If brace for impact order is issued during the ship's movement phase, negative effects only applied for the remainder of the turn".

[Don]

forgot to add.
Of course you could, for example, sacrifice an excort, if you have one around, but the point is that a 2-turn penalties in just one case of a game process seems to me strange and exploitable.

[russ_c]

I suggest that this unfair advantage should be removed. For example: "If brace for impact order is issued during the ship's movement phase, negative effects only applied for the remainder of the turn".

You bring up a good point Don.  What's always been curious to me, and I forgotten for inclusion into this FAQ, is that on page 11 of the BBB it says:

"This order is unusual in that it can only be used during the ordnance phase or during an opponents turn."

That would imply that your just screwed in your movement phase.  But, that is later contradicted by the text that further details the SO.  I'm curious if the original designer was thinking about this problem at the time of writing.

Russ

[RayB HA]

Mazila,

Thanks for reminding me of this point!

What do people think of the following: You may BFI as if it were a normal special order, so you would then lose BFI at the begining of your next turn like any other special order. However if you only decided to BFI at the point impact in your movement phase you'd be BFI'd for almost 2 turns including 2 of your shooting phases!

Bracing as a normal special order is handy if you want to make sure you definantely want to shoot next turn.

Cheers,

RayB HA

[Don]

I think that both positive and negative effects of BFI issued during ship's movement phase in response to danger should end in the end of ship's current turn. Other way, ship would get 'free' bracing in an opponent next turn.

to RayB

you propose a drastic change, i don't say it is bad, but this require a good analysis.
You see, certain short-ranged fleets will be quite upped by this change. For example imperial fleet could mass brace (squadrons are preferable) in their turn BEFORE they would be hited by eldar or choas, and then they would unleash thier full potential upon traitors and xeno scum.
This change seems pretty logical (admiral can anticipate incoming fire), but it will change the balance in major way.
I am personaly dreamed of opportunity to brace before incoming fire from eldar held asteroid field and then stomp them to oblivion (and this really would help to poor orks).
But I fear that in this case imperial cruisers would be nearly unstoppable in certain occasions and certain tactics will be upped greatly (Slaughter rush for example)

Personaly, I vote for this, because I love to do things in advance and it is, you now, quite in style. Also this will add a whole new branch of tactical decisions, which is always good for a game

[Vaaish]

I'm not fond of changing BFI so that a failed attempt ends special orders. This seems like something an individual captain can decide on without the need for the armirals intervention to tell them to brace as such I think the current method works pretty well.

[Don]

to Vaaish
proposed change add a possibility to issue BFI as standard special order. I suppose it has nothing to do with normal way of issuing this order (during opponent turn for example), even if some special order (including BFI) was failed at at begining of the ship's turn. In fact it adds a new "Fleet level BFI" order wich is issued by admiral and as such follows the regular rules for SO.
But, again, for good or evil, it is a MAJOR balance change favoring various attack run tactics.
To make it absolutely clear.
this change brings the following:
you can BFI
A) voluntary at the beginning of your turn  (count as normal SO. duration: current turn and the following enemy turn)
B) Ordanance or movement phase, ship under fire (duration: the remainder of the current turn, following enemy turn and, next turn of the vessel)
C) During enemy turn, ship under fire (duration: enemy turn and next turn of the vessel)

variant (A) brings the possibility to issue an order in the beginning of your turn before enemy ships will commence heavy fire (during their turn), survive it being on BFI, and then engage at full power. So you can issue BFI in advance for ships which probably will come under fire in an opponent following turn, and then retaliate in strength, while normal course of events is: come under fire - BFI - next turn firepower reduced.  

[Zhukov]

Our group has always been ahead of the curve cause we have always done A.

I think B is a little too harsh. It really would make deploying AC in front of capital ships instead of attacking them in the Ordnance phase the only sensible thing to do, which doesn't make any sense.

-Zhukov

[Vaaish]

Don:
I think A removes the downside of BFI. Why NOT BFI before closing if you estimate your movement will end out of range or out of optimal range? You sacrifice nothing to obtain a 4+ save because you will be able to lock on, RO, etc. in your turn or return fire without any consequence.

The current effect of BFI is that you have to choose between weathering incoming fire in hopes of returning fire at full strength, or bracing in hopes of keeping you ship alive for later attack or disengagement. I feel that changing this to a SO level command would be too advantageous. Instead of such a drastic change, perhaps it would be more prudent to simply clarify the duration of the BFI. Ie. say that the weapons are halved only for the next shooting phase rather than the next turn. That would make the rule look more like this:

...A ship which uses this special order may not use special orders at all in its next turn and the ship's Firepower, ordnance, and armament strength is halved for the owning player's next shooting phase...

It should have the effect that a ship which braces in its movement phase will be able to act at full power outside of SO in it's next turn while ships which brace in the ordnance phase of either turn or the opponents shooting phase function with BFI as it currently stands.

[Mazila]

I was thinking more along the lines with Vaaish when i asked my question. I also think that making BFI a regular order is way too big change for a FAQ.

[fracas]

yet BFI remains the exception to all the the other SO
doesn't take place early in movement phase and may occur in opponent's turn even
may be repeatedly attempted, even by the same ship, when shot at by a new source despite failure against other source


to clarify the rules (goal of FAQ) either make it a command decision instead of a special order (replace it with "Silent Running") or bring it in line with the other SO to be tested at the beginning of the movement phase, and have failed test end all further attempts not just with BFI but with all other SO as the SO rules specify

[Vaaish]

There is no such thing as a command decision in the current BFG rules, only Command Checks and Leadership tests. The BFI order was demoted from full SO requiring a command check to a simple leadership test in the PDF rulebook. It still retains some of its SO status since it replace existing special order and is still in the special order sections, but it's not a true SO because of the LD test to activate rather than a command check.

I'm not certain how that adding a completely new SO or making the BFI order activate using a command check again will clarify things, Fracas. There doesn't seem to be any confusion on what BFI does, when you may test for it, or how often it may be done. The confusion that needs clarification is on its duration given the high number of points in a turn it can be potentially activated causing a variable penalty duration.

[horizon]

Brace for Impact is actually more special then a special order since it overrides other special orders.

Personally I would not recommend a change to the current working, heck, the FAQ2007 only changed wording to make things clearer but in essence it are still original rules.

I say keep it as is.

[russ_c]

IF you do consider changing BFI.  I would be more inclined to agree with a hybrid of the current suggestions (pehaps it's what Don first suggested?):

If you take BFI prior to the ordnance phase, it's effects only last until then end of the current players turn.

This allows you to save against crafty placed Ordnance, but you will not get a free +4 save during your opponents shooting phase.  Making it an SO as suggested in Don's option A would give you a free save only to be able to return full firepower.  Vaaish suggestion seems to have the same problem.  You'll get the save and then return to full power next time you can fire.  By cutting it off immediately after the end phase of the current turn, the player can take the BFI if needed in the movement, shots at half strength, and then does not get a free save during the opponents turn.  Thoughts?

Ugh, I'm not sure I like this suggestion, because when I write it down on paper it seems like trouble keeping track of when the BFI was initiated.  But it's kind of a middle of the road solution.  Fixes the initial issue, but still has a balance of half weapons during that shooting phase.

This is a tough one.

Russ