BFG FAQ 2010 Fleet Specific Questions

[Innocent]

Well here are my 2 main lists:

Carrier Hiveship
8 launch bays and 8 torps - 305points
6 Plasma drones - 90points
Gunship Hiveship
6 launch bays, 16 front WBs - 320points
6 drones - 90points
4 Vanguard drones with tentacles - 100points
2 pyro-acid Krakens - 80 points
Total: 985 points
There's room for another drone or a str 4 torpedo marker.

This list has the exact shortfalls that Mycen listed: it's a castle list. The only thing it can do is sit back and churn out AC, mostly because of the slow drones. The 4 vanguards 2 krakens are no way enough numbers to be a credible long range threat.

I was also attempting to take advantage of the  vanguard - Gunship Hiveship combo , as I think it is one of the most beautiful synergies in the game. But with only 4 vanguards I'm not sure it can work (they will get shot to pieces, not enough numbers and other threats to cover them).

Second list:
Carrier Hiveship
8 launch bays and 8 torps, ld9 upgrade - 345points
8 Plasma drones - 120points
5 vanguards - 125 points
5 Pyro Kraken - 200 points
Dual Torps cruiser - 100 points
Dual Torps cruiser - 100 points
Total: 990 points

More balanced, but as the tyranid player I am not 100% comfortable playing this list. First if the hiveship dies it's pretty much game over (the rulebook does not even say if you are allowed to disengage your other ships). The Ld upgrade is a must if you only have one hiveship, you want to minimise the ld tests you fail. Sure it's an advantage to have ld9 for your entire fleet, but if you fail one test the consequences are much worse than in a normal fleet: all the remaining ships that do not have to reload ordnance go on auto pilot (and that means most of the time moving dumbly ahead at half speed or towards a planet).
Secondly I quickly hit the limit of 18 escorts. Note that I have more than 6 drones (8 exactly) to give the hiveship more protection, I could swap one for an extra vanguard but that does not make much difference.
I have more Vanguards and Krakens, but I cannot afford a gunship hiveship to do the pretty cool combo. So they just rush on a flank with the Krakens and harass whatever is there. They also tend to die fairly quickly if the opposite player focuses on them. Again, as Mycen said not enough numbers to do a truely effective envelopment maneuvre.
The Cruisers are point fillers because I have hit the 18 escorts limit. They will just sit back and churn out torps, otherwise every opposing cruiser and their dog will shoot at them and they will die in the blink of an eye.

Again, as Mycen pointed out every tyranid list will be a variation of one or the other of the above (unless you play Vanguard list, I have yet to try). Feel free to correct me if i am wrong or if you have a list and strategy vastly different from the aboves, I would be more than happy to learn new tricks

If the 6 drones rules was instead 6 escorts, I could do the following:
 - Get more vanguards and krakens in the first list, maybe even ditch the 6 launch bays on the gunship hiveship. This way the gunship can support a decent group of fast escorts which in turn provides marking for the gunship.
 - Ditch the 2 cruisers in the second list, ditch the ld9 upgrade and 2 drones. I have enough points to afford a hiveship gunship.
 - have 2 cheap hiveships and max out on fast escorts.

The 6 drones rule really constricts me to a castle type of gameplay.

As I said, I have to max on AC because I have no other way to protect my ships from long range fire. I know it frustrates some of my opponents.

I am thinking of trialling the following house rules:
 - Turrets fire against Tyranid ordnance gets a +1 to their roll. So under normal condition each turret will need a 3+ to destroy ordnance rather than 4+.
 - Weapons batteries get a left column shift when shooting at Tyranid ordnance. This is on top of any other column shift they would get.

This way my tyranid fleet does not loose it's character, it is still a swarm of small organisms, but my opponents will be hopefully more comfortable with dealing with the ordnance and I will have to rely on something else to do the damage.

[AndrewChristlieb]

I wouldn't change your ordnance rules, if your opponents are cool with house rules, see if they'll play the rules as any escort. Shouldn't be hard to convince most people to play refits also, especially if your not cheesing it up.

[Innocent]

Very true. I forget that if the other player agrees you can play them. I will definitely use them on some cruisers to try to make something useful but not overpowered.

However if playing without refits and following the FAQ rules I don't see much else I can do than the above.

[Vaaish]

I'm noticing your lists are both 1k points. Do you play 1500 points often? It's pretty much the standard point value for most games and that extra 500 points could help out your options considerably. Evan as an IN player I have to cut corners to get everything into a 1k list I need.

[Innocent]

yes we play mostly at 1000points, that's the best we can fit in an evening at the club. I've played a few games at 1500 but they are not the norm.

Granted at 1500 points I can add another hiveship. I would still be stuck with a bucket load of Escort drones though which restrict my movements. The whole problem is that the Nids are the only list were this has happened (we HAVE to take something slow and boring) when all the other lists have had increased flexibility and options.

It's also pretty rude in my opinion to force someone to play his list in a certain way.

I'm not trying to criticise or belittle the work that has been done on the FAQ, but show the frustration that this rule has caused in an otherwise great document.

[Vaaish]

I was thinking that the extra 500 points could be used to double the krakens and vanguards as well as take a couple of cruisers instead of the hiveship since that seemed the element you were worried about in 1k games. I think I see your problem though. If you drop a hiveship you can't take enough stuff to fill out the points because of the 12 escort limit and two cruisers, but if you take a second hiveship you end up with low numbers of any other escort and have to take the cruisers.

I'm not entirely familiar with the requirements for hiveships, but are the port/starboard options required? It seems you could get a s16 prow battery ship for 260 points and 350 including the drones. With the carrier one that would give you 250 points for kraken and vanguard. It does leave some holes with the lack of any port/sbd weapons but it would give you options even if you had to take a battery you still have some options.

I'm almost 99% positive that the fleets and point value these changes were considered at was 1500 points so the 1k point value is far more limiting. Looking at it more closely, the issue is most acute in the 1k point band. Drop to 500 points and you end up with a hiveship, 8lb, 8 torps, and 10 escorts. It's a respectable force and there is a bit of variety to be had despite the required drones not really much more limiting than an IN list. 750 points also has a pretty fair range of options based around a single hiveship or going the vanguard route. 1500 points has some options as well, but when you hit 1k you have this odd gap.

[Mycen]

At 1500 points one does have more options, but the situation isn't entirely different. I'm trying to build a list for Adepticon, compare my pre- and post-FAQ lists.

My tentative Pre-FAQ looked like this (I had only playtested it a few times, so there were still a few changes I was considering):

320 - Hiveship
          Prow Pyro-Acid
          Thorax Pyro-Acid
          Port/Starboard Launch Bays X 3
305 - Hiveship
          Prow Torpedoes
          Thorax Launch Bays
          Port/Starboard Launch Bays X 3
300 - Hiveship
          Prow Bio-plasma
          Thorax Bio-plasma
          Port/Starboard Bio-plasma X 2
          Port/Starboard Launch Bays X 1
250 - Vanguard Drones X 10
          Feeder Tentacles
210 - Kraken X 6
          Massive Claws
105 - Escort Drones X 7
          Bio-plasma
7 - Fighter Marker

The idea, as you can probably guess, is pretty simple. The two launch bay hiveships are on one side of the table by themselves, the plasma hiveship, kraken, and vanguards are on the other, whilst the escort drones bridge the gap between them. The dual hiveships march up and act as the focal point for the enemy fleet, while the rest of the ships charge across the board to form a net that comes in from the side. It allows a lot of flexibility, as anywhere the enemy chooses to run they will be facing a powerful element, and the other side can move in for backup. At the same time it has its vulnerabilities, the fast element has limited synapse control, and the slow element is vulnerable to being forced to always be braced from concentrated fire. It is interesting to play, and relies on... daring, shall I say?

I was considering either dropping a kraken and a few drones to fit in either a dual claw cruiser or a dual torp cruiser. A dual claw cruiser with the bio-plasma hiveship would provide a credible distraction or even a threat if they chose to let it get close. The dual torp cruiser would solve the problem of one torp marker not being enough. (Although I was against ordnance-light fleets the few games I played, so it didn't make much of a difference.)

Now that list is quite illegal though, so some changes are required. This leaves me looking at something like this:

300 - Hiveship
          Prow Pyro-Acid
          Thorax Pyro-Acid
          Port/Starboard Launch Bays X 2
300 - Hiveship
          Prow Pyro-Acid
          Thorax Pyro-Acid
          Port/Starboard Launch Bays X 2
100 - Cruiser
          Prow Torpedoes
          Thorax Torpedoes
120 - Escort Drones X 8
          Bio-plasma
120 - Escort Drones X 6
          Pyro-Acid
175 - Vanguard Drones X 7
          Feeder Tentacles
175 - Vanguard Drones X7
           Feeder Tentacles
210 - Kraken X 6
          Massive Claws

The Hiveships sit in the center of the board, with the eight bio-plasma escorts screening them and the topr cruiser sitting behind them. Vanguards and Kraken on one flank, Vanguards and Pyro-Acid Escort Drones on the other. The tactical concept really needs no explanation.

It's a more boring than my first list, but not that bad a list. The only two problems are:

First, it lacks launch bays. Eight LB and two torps for a 1500 point tyranid list is pretty sad. I could swap one hiveship for a carrier hive, but that would mean dropping a LB on the other, so my net LB strength isn't really different, and I lose a lot of shooting. I could drop a drone and make them both carriers, of course, but then I don't have any shooting.

Second, it only has two hiveships. Before the FAQ this would not have been a problem, as I could make the hiveships durable. But now that they're limited to being slow grand cruisers, going up against a 1500 point fleet with only two hiveships is not an attractive option. Even an IN opponent will have enough long-range firepower so that crushing one hiveship early is not a difficult proposition. Remember, he only has to cripple it, and with the -5cm for blast markers and the large base, I can't even clear all my blast markers without going AAF. This means I effectively only have three shields, not four.

I'm almost 99% positive that the fleets and point value these changes were considered at was 1500 points so the 1k point value is far more limiting. ... 1500 points has some options as well, but when you hit 1k you have this odd gap.

Which of the above lists would you rather play against? Which do you think would provide a more interesting game?

The issue is that, unless I want to play the most boring list ever, I basically can't take more than two hiveships at anything short of 2000 points.

Sure, I could save a few points by dropping port/starboard weapons on the hiveships, giving me more points, but then I have no launch bays. As Innocent pointed out, without any long-range weapons, LB strength is the Tyranids' only protection at range, and they become increasingly important as the points level rises and long-range weapons become more prevalent. I need a lot of them, but can't have a lot of hiveships (without having no ships that move faster than 15cm ) so I'm a little bit stuck. 

yes we play mostly at 1000points, that's the best we can fit in an evening at the club. I've played a few games at 1500 but they are not the norm.

Granted at 1500 points I can add another hiveship. I would still be stuck with a bucket load of Escort drones though which restrict my movements. The whole problem is that the Nids are the only list were this has happened (we HAVE to take something slow and boring) when all the other lists have had increased flexibility and options.

It's also pretty rude in my opinion to force someone to play his list in a certain way.

I'm not trying to criticise or belittle the work that has been done on the FAQ, but show the frustration that this rule has caused in an otherwise great document.

This is exactly my problem.

[Vaaish]

Personally, I think either would provide an interesting game. With the nid ordnance being allowed 2x the markers in play for your LB strength, you've got equivalent s16 bays which isn't bad (inferior ordnance not withstanding). Both lists seem to have the option for the play style you want, albeit the first list gives you more room for error with the third hiveship.

Have you given the modified FAQ 2010 list a go yet to see how it performs both with your original strategy and with a modified one? Thinking it through and thinking what I'd be taking as IN or Marines or Chaos in the 1k and 1500 point ranges these don't seem that bad. Even with short range and low torpedoes you've got a lot going for you with the amount of stuff on the board and I think I'd be hard pressed to clean out all or enough of that before it hit.

[Seahawk]

Just an aside, escort drones can't be put into squadrons of more than 6; only the Kraken and Vanguard drones are 6-12. Unless I read it wrong...

[Innocent]

Just an aside, escort drones can't be put into squadrons of more than 6; only the Kraken and Vanguard drones are 6-12. Unless I read it wrong...

I think this is incorrect Seahawk: p91 of Armada, Squadrons: "Tyranids do not follow the normal squadron rules when forming up the fleet. Tyranid Escorts come in squadrons of 1 to 12 vessels, while all other types are individuals and may not deploy in squadrons."

You might be thinking of the Vanguard List on p90, which is a completely different list: only Vanguards and Krakens can be fielded, and yes in this case they have to be in squads of 6 to 12.

[Seahawk]

Wow, I totally read it all as a single two-page fleet list. FAIL. Thanks!

[Innocent]

No probs

As an aside, the Vanguard List would be much more interesting if we were allowed to buy ordnance for it like the normal fleet list.

[Mallich]

Two quick questions (plus a third related question):
Eldar/Dark Eldar question, mentioned in the 2010 FAQ but I'd just like a clarification.

Eldar and Dark Eldar ships can make a leadership check to ignore all effects of celestial phenomena such as gas clouds, solar flares, etc. Escorts may re-roll this result for free.

The current wording means that Eldar and Dark Eldar can fire straight through asteriod fields/planets/warp rifts without penalty, as long as they pass a leadership roll (which escorts can re-roll). Is this really the case? I'm asking because I'm not entirely convinced that a combination of eldar technology and cunning can really let a ship fire through 6000km of rock. I could understand how they could shoot through gas clouds without penalty, though (superior sensors, knowledge of where the gas cloud has the lowest densities).

Next, an ork question that's not mentioned in the FAQ at all.
One of their engine refits ("A Bigger Red Button", Armada, page 139) lets a ship double the bonus distance travelled once per game (which would, for most ork ships, give the equivalent of a total extra movement of 4d6 extra for one All Ahead Full order). Would the decision to "double the result of the dice roll to see how far the ship goes" be taken before or after the dice roll?
I'm guessing that the decision would be made after the roll since a different engine refit ("Improved Engines") lets a ship add 2d6 to all All Ahead Full rolls (which would, for most ork ships, give a total extra movement of 4d6 extra for every All Ahead Full order rather than just once per game).
The third question would be about the order of these results. If a ship had both refits, would the doubling be before or after the extra 2d6 from the Improved? Would the ork ship roll the normal number of dice (2, or 4 if the ship had the "Soopa Enginez"/"Soopa Boostas"), double the results, and then add the 2d6 from the "Improved Engines"? I'm not sure if we use BIDMAS in BFG.

[Vaaish]

The current wording means that Eldar and Dark Eldar can fire straight through asteriod fields/planets/warp rifts without penalty, as long as they pass a leadership roll (which escorts can re-roll).

I think you are taking this out of context and using it to allow Eldar an advantage they were never intended to have. The segment you clipped out is part of the FAQ segment relating to eldar movement not shooting. As such, it follows that the LD check allows the Eldar to ignore the effects of the various phenomena that would affect their movement. Shooting does not allow such benefit.

One of their engine refits ("A Bigger Red Button", Armada, page 139) lets a ship double the bonus distance travelled once per game (which would, for most ork ships, give the equivalent of a total extra movement of 4d6 extra for one All Ahead Full order). Would the decision to "double the result of the dice roll to see how far the ship goes" be taken before or after the dice roll?

If you read the entire entry for the bigger red button there should be no confusion:
"Once per game when you use the All Ahead Full special orders, you may double the result of the dice roll to see how far you
go. You must travel this FULL distance."

I checked with the PDF and the printed Armada book and both have this wording. It should also clear up any confusion with your third question. You have to roll before using the bigger red button so if you had a refit that increases the dice you roll for AAF then it would happen before you double the distance.

[Mallich]

The current wording means that Eldar and Dark Eldar can fire straight through asteriod fields/planets/warp rifts without penalty, as long as they pass a leadership roll (which escorts can re-roll).

I think you are taking this out of context and using it to allow Eldar an advantage they were never intended to have. The segment you clipped out is part of the FAQ segment relating to eldar movement not shooting. As such, it follows that the LD check allows the Eldar to ignore the effects of the various phenomena that would affect their movement. Shooting does not allow such benefit.

So, "make a leadership check to ignore all effects of celestial phenomena such as gas clouds, solar flares, etc" meant, in context, "make a leadership check to ignore all movement-related effects of celestial phenomena such as gas clouds, solar flares, etc". Thank goodness for that. I should have payed more attention to context, sorry.
Thanks for the answers for questions 2 and 3.